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Author Topic: Setting Ideas: Brainstorming  (Read 70246 times)
zenbitz
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2009, 01:20:08 AM »


Although a worldwide biowar is really tempting, I'm only considering nuclear holocaust here (for now). However, I suggest we turn to other types of holocaust later.

In order to make any post-war climatic projections, it is needed to know how much soot will be released after the bombings. There are different projections on that, being Min = 50 Tg, Max = 150 Tg. In any case, because of that soot, as you may know, the nuclear winter will ensue.

Great part about fiction is that we can pick and choose exact meggatonage dropped (mix in germ/chem bombs for the rest) to get the temp change we want

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The ozone layer will decrease significantly, exposing Earth surface (after the smoke settles) to hazardous UV radiation. This means, one must be protected from the direct sunlight at all times.

For some reason, I find this very boring to put in a game. Although it would be funny if we had artists who sucked at drawing eyes, so everyone wears sunglasses.
Not to kill the idea if someone has some ideas around it.

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The nuclear winter will last for about 10 years, its coldest time being in the middle.

Hmm... can we postulate it triggering an ice age or mini-ice-age.   I just think 10 years after might be on the short side.

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However, judging by what I have managed to gather, there is no guarantee that Baltic Sea will freeze in this case (although a large portion of it might be evaporated after the blasts). Therefore, I guess, for the sake of the gameplay, I suggest we make an assumption that the sea freezes up. This assumption will save us the effort of building ships, which is, most likely, we do not want. Smiley

Disagree on most counts!  Why would the baltic evaporate?  Who is lobbing nukes at it?!?!?   Not critical, as I do agree that we can make it freeze if it suits the story line.  However - what's wrong with ships?  I think this is a good way to "break up the game world" - and restrict PC travel - focus him to cool things.  We have agreed on vehicles already.  You never explained why you didn't like all the water either...


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and a good article in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

I second this one.   
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 08:17:14 PM by zenbitz » Logged

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Lamoot
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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2009, 11:56:28 AM »

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The ozone layer will decrease significantly, exposing Earth surface (after the smoke settles) to hazardous UV radiation. This means, one must be protected from the direct sunlight at all times.

This sounds cool, but I wonder how it would affect the overall gameplay, if you had to play hide and seek with the sun. On a second thought, we could say this did happen, but things kind of normalized, since it's been 20+ years since the war.

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Disagree on most counts!  Why would the baltic evaporate?  Who is lobbing nukes at it?!?!?   Not critical, as I do agree that we can make it freeze if it suits the story line.  However - what's wrong with ships?  I think this is a good way to "break up the game world" - and restrict PC travel - focus him to cool things.  We have agreed on vehicles already.  You never explained why you didn't like all the water either...

It seems hard for a whole sea to evaporate, even if it does, it would get water from elsewhere.

My initial idea was to have as much Baltic frozen as possible. It would be easier for the player to travel anywhere on foot. But reading what you said, I'm interested what kind of ideas do you have with ships and sea. I guess a part of the map that can't be crossed on foot would add cool variety + there are other options, like viking raid fleets, or nuclear icebreakers running around the place.

A compromise would then be better, so we have a balance between frozen and liquid sea.

Ah a random idea: have a buoy stuck in ice, could be used as a small random location on the wolrd map, or perhaps a waypoint for nomads who roam the frozen Baltic.

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This also means that a "black rain" phenomenon will take place some time after the war. This is the soot washed down with the precipitation. Please refer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ageNFDB49os&feature=related for more detailed explanation (on the sad example of Hiroshima).

"The fallout after the explosion on Hiroshima came in the form of thick high radioactive rain. The victims who swallowed it died an instant death; "

Black rain sounds cool, imo it would be a good element to have in the game. It's not some bogus STALKER-like anomaly and it sounds sinister + could be a part of the world culture, be in the post-war folklore and stuff. And it would also be a type of extreme weather in the game.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 12:11:19 PM by Lamoot » Logged
egalor
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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2009, 04:53:59 PM »

Ok, let's turn to the Baltic sea.

Initially, my first objection against large bodies of water was the necessity of buildng ships which it entailed (provided we want to get the player to different parts of the region). Building/acquiring ships ain't an easy matter (I don't consider the tanker in FO2 Smiley), and if the whole gameplay is affected by this that might shift a bit the game style (I am not sure, but it might).

On the other hand, I liked much more the frozen Baltic -- thus it will be turned to the Wasteland, albeit with the snow/ice instead of the sands. I also liked very much Lamoot's ideas about encountering frozen in submarines, warships, civil ships, nav buoys and other things.

Therefore, Lamoot, before I answer your question on which ideas I have on ships and sea, I would prefer if we first decide whether:

- the water will be frozen or liquid everywhere; or
- there will be frozen and liquid water combined.
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Lamoot
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2009, 05:53:38 PM »

I would go for frozen and liquid combined. This way we get a frozen wasteland and we also get all those ships stuck in ice and all. But a too big frozen wasteland area can be a bit monotone and thus boring. By having parts of liquid water, the player couldn't just walk anywhere, but would need to find some other means to travel vast expanses of water. This gives us variety and more possibilities in the future.

The exact amount of the sea frozen or liquid is yet to be discussed, but this is my general proposal how we could do it:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5408/parpgworldko4.png

  • Coast of Norway wouldn't have much ice if any
  • Skagerrak is liquid sea
  • Kattegat is liquid sea
  • South, the ice would start somewhere around Kaliningrad
  • The Island of Gotland would be half in liquid sea and the rest in liquid sea.
  • The word "Baltic" would be in liquid sea, but the ice would start north from the letter "c"
  • Everything beyond North from the island of Gotland would be frozen.

Do you think this is too much frozen water? If yes, we could then do something more similar to how the Baltic actually looks like in winter + a tiny bit of more ice.

Hmm come to think of it, this is a really nice image, shows nicely the forests and lakes and the mounatins.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2009, 08:04:03 PM »

[but things kind of normalized, since it's been 20+ years since the war.

Are we happy with 20 years after?  I think it's about right... but I could be convinced otherwise.

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A compromise would then be better, so we have a balance between frozen and liquid sea.

Sounds good to me

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This also means that a "black rain" phenomenon will take place some time after the war. This is the soot washed down with the precipitation. Please refer to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ageNFDB49os&feature=related for more detailed explanation (on the sad example of Hiroshima).

"The fallout after the explosion on Hiroshima came in the form of thick high radioactive rain. The victims who swallowed it died an instant death; "

Black rain sounds cool, imo it would be a good element to have in the game. It's not some bogus STALKER-like anomaly and it sounds sinister + could be a part of the world culture, be in the post-war folklore and stuff. And it would also be a type of extreme weather in the game.
Also - I doubt the death was INSTANT...

OK,  I have a small problem with this in a 20 years after game.   "Black Rain" is contaminated dirt mixed with rain.  It only occurs ~days after atomic strike.  For us to have black rain, we need some way to get contaminated material into the air again.  I am trying to imagine another kind of radioactive snow fall or rain - but the only thing I can come up with is "Heavy water" (tritiated).  Tritium is radioactive... but pretty mild.    I could maybe imagine a radioactive dust storm, if you could get a HUGE pile of Cesium-138 or Strontium-90 on the ground in a windy place... but it stretches credibility a little (but so does nuking Stockholm and Oslo)
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zenbitz
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« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2009, 08:13:38 PM »

I would go for frozen and liquid combined. This way we get a frozen wasteland and we also get all those ships stuck in ice and all. But a too big frozen wasteland area can be a bit monotone and thus boring. By having parts of liquid water, the player couldn't just walk anywhere, but would need to find some other means to travel vast expanses of water. This gives us variety and more possibilities in the future.
agreed on all counts.

Nice satt.map, too.

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  • Coast of Norway wouldn't have much ice if any
  • Skagerrak is liquid sea
  • Kattegat is liquid sea
  • South, the ice would start somewhere around Kaliningrad
  • The Island of Gotland would be half in liquid sea and the rest in liquid sea.
  • The word "Baltic" would be in liquid sea, but the ice would start north from the letter "c"
  • Everything beyond North from the island of Gotland would be frozen.
I think this is about right.  There might also be another "sea" terrain type between open water and frozen "pack ice"  - ice flows: http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-ice-floe.htm

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The ice forms outward from the land during winter, and each spring, Arctic hunters like to venture out onto the ice. The ice or floe edge - where the ice meets open water - is the best location for hunting and fishing.

It is also the most dynamic and dangerous place to be in the spring, and each year, unsuspecting people are set adrift as the ice fractures and large ice floes float out to sea. This often happens in weather conditions that make air searches and rescue efforts difficult or impossible.



We can also "adjust" the borders of Pack Ice/Ice Flow/Open water based on seasons.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 08:19:07 PM by zenbitz » Logged

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Lamoot
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« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2009, 10:33:45 PM »

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I think this is about right.  There might also be another "sea" terrain type between open water and frozen "pack ice"  - ice flows: http://www.athropolis.com/arctic-facts/fact-ice-floe.htm
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It is also the most dynamic and dangerous place to be in the spring, and each year, ...

Included in my mental image of the setting.

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We can also "adjust" the borders of Pack Ice/Ice Flow/Open water based on seasons.

Ah seasons, I haven't given this any thought to this. How hard would it be to take into account all the world changes then? We wouldn't have any problems with farming, but I'm trying to come up with possible consequences other than change of the world map.

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Are we happy with 20 years after?  I think it's about right... but I could be convinced otherwise.

I was thinking somewhere 20-50 years after the war. It depends what kind of demographics we want to have. Ratio of pre-war to post-war born folk. This will affect the setting somewhat.

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Everything beyond North from the island of Gotland would be frozen.

To comment myself, we could also add a narrowing passage that goes a bit more towards the north. The satellite image has something similar, but our passage wouldn't go as far north.

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Also - I doubt the death was INSTANT...

OK,  I have a small problem with this in a 20 years after game.   "Black Rain" is contaminated dirt mixed with rain.  It only occurs ~days after atomic strike.  For us to have black rain, we need some way to get contaminated material into the air again.  I am trying to imagine another kind of radioactive snow fall or rain - but the only thing I can come up with is "Heavy water" (tritiated).  Tritium is radioactive... but pretty mild.    I could maybe imagine a radioactive dust storm, if you could get a HUGE pile of Cesium-138 or Strontium-90 on the ground in a windy place... but it stretches credibility a little (but so does nuking Stockholm and Oslo)

Yes, that's where black rain fails. It could still make it into the folklore, something like how the war made the sky cry black tears to clean the earth of all that is human, since humanity itself was lost. Stuff like that Smiley
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zenbitz
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2009, 12:51:50 AM »

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Ah seasons, I haven't given this any thought to this. How hard would it be to take into account all the world changes then? We wouldn't have any problems with farming, but I'm trying to come up with possible consequences other than change of the world map.

Could be a big art problem, more difficult than night/day by a long shot. 
Most obvious effect:  Weather pattern changes - there has been some chatter about weather, but nothing concrete.
World map effect:  Not only graphical - but functionally Ice Pack/Ice Flow/Open water are going to have different behaviors, travel effects.   For land world map tiles - will effect ease of finding food, exposure, encounter types, even frequency.

I think the mechanical game stuff is triival - but could be a big increase in art assets needed.  Might be a programming solution though with some kinda of fancy pixel color masks.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2009, 05:48:09 AM »

Basically a link dump from todays googling:  The upshot is that I was "way off" on Soviet war plans to deal with Scandanvia.
Much of the following (particuarly the links labed "JACKPOT") are pretty good background.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nuclearwar1.html - effect of nuclear war
http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/collections/colltopic.cfm?lng=en&id=16239&navinfo=15365 - 1963 Warsaw Pact attack plan (in English, Russian, Czech)
http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/collections/colltopic.cfm?lng=en&id=16606 - 1965 Hungarian war game plan, Vienna, Munich, Verona destroyed...

Also on this site, but summary is interesting:
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A Landing Operation in Denmark
The Polish Military's Losses in the First Phase of a Warsaw Pact Offensive Were to Reach 50 Percent
Oct 2002
Description: This is a report on Polish war plans from 1956 to 1970. The Polish general staff planned to create a northern European maritime front within the Warsaw Pact. In case of war, the main thrust of Poland's forces was to be directed towards Jutland, the Elbe, and the German-Danish border. In the second phase of attack, the Polish forces were to advance towards the northern German plains and the Netherlands. However, the Polish Fourth Army had a different task - it was to act in combination with the pact's United Fleet to conduct a landing operation on the Danish islands and and secure access to the North Sea. Tactical nuclear strikes against enemy forces and Danish urban areas were part of the war plans.

Unable to find even a "projected" or "guessitimate" european target list - although the Russians were convinced NATO was going to knock the stuffing out of Poland...

JACKPOT!
http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/collections/gallery.cfm?id=46465  - correct google-fu was "soviet plan sweden"
http://www.php.isn.ethz.ch/collections/coll_sovthreat/Introduction.cfm?navinfo=46465 has bigger versions of the pix with text.

one more edit, because it specifically mentions chemical weapons:  This is from the same source as above - the Polish armies were to attack through Germany through Denmark (and parts of Southern Sweden)

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The attack on Jutland would be facilitated through Russian airborne troops taking the Kiel Canal at an early stage. East German units would take part in landing on the islands. The Soviet Baltic Fleet would open up the Danish sounds and the East German Navy the Kiel Canal. The landing areas on the Danish islands were to be attacked first using highly volatile chemical weapons.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 07:59:56 AM by zenbitz » Logged

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Lamoot
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2009, 10:44:17 AM »

Hmm, hmm, interesting stuff. Reading through it. It seems our wasteland will have many ties to the past (unlike fallout, where the past was very distant).

Since we have now agreed on the general location, we should now start working on the events that happened in the area and let to the current situation of the game world. I expect any large army in the region would collapse due to lack of supplies (the invading armies especially), and you'd only have small bands left.

I wonder if things would be still mainly about NATO vs. the Warsaw pact, or would the general lack of organisation/orders from above mean that other (more individual interests) came into play, with different factions. Would there still be a war, or simply a region where some new and some old interest groups had their own agenda, but neither strong enough to really make decisive blows. Would they perhaps abandon their pre-war agressiveness and care more about their own survival in this harsh land? Especially after this shift of climate was imposed on everyone and you couldn't simply ignore this omni force. The Nordic nations seem to be a bit more prepared to survive in winter conditions than the Red Army, so this is also a factor in positioning post-war groups/bands/factions on the world map.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 10:50:02 AM by Lamoot » Logged
Lamoot
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2009, 02:14:41 PM »

Do we also want to have some weird cold war stuff in it, stuff that borders to fiction. Similar to what Red Alert did, when it mixed conventional warfare with some weird stuff. We shouldn't go as far as time travel, but cold war secret experiements always sparkle my imagination Smiley
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zenbitz
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2009, 03:31:07 AM »

Hmm... not familiar with what Red Alert did.
I would say that "James Bond" level gagets would be the absolute maximum.  I would be OK with something silly like the Russian "cutter armored car" from Indiana Jones IV.

Remeber, all this stuff suffered through a global war - then 20 years of decay.
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2009, 10:32:34 AM »

I like the idea of the cuba crisis gone bad. Can we agree on having a kind of post WW2 setting?
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zenbitz
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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2009, 08:43:08 PM »

Yeah, post WWII seems fine.  My head seems geared toward 80s... but 60s might be cool too.  Might be too close to fallout.
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egalor
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2009, 11:51:17 AM »

Do I see it correctly:

1) The game will be placed in Northern Europe (as indicated on Lamoot's snapshot)?

2) The timeline starts somewhere in between 1945 (end of WW2) and 1962 (Cuban missile crisis)?

Also, I would appreciate if somebody would keep track of our brainstorming on the wiki pages. Otherwise it is pretty easy to lose some important detail, or simply get lost in a discussion (especially for any new recruits).
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