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Author Topic: Trading and haggling, bartering and bargaining  (Read 14991 times)
Lamoot
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2009, 12:34:44 PM »

But then again, cigarette warehouses are in cities and one thing the cigarettes do well is burn, especially if nuked.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2009, 11:54:10 PM »


But on the other side when something is suddenly valuable people start conserve it.  It would no longer be possible for the vast majority of people to continue smoking at their regular rate... or drinking tea/coffee etc.


Possibly, but these things are only valuable because they are consumable.  If the the numbers were closer I would be more willing to fudge it.

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Though i wonder how self-sufficient Norway is even with modern tech?  The loss of tech + even a mild nuclear winter might be expected to kill 99+% (besides the Sami) in a few years.

Oh, come on.  Norway did just fine in the middle ages.  I think it could easily support a population of 300,000 or so, especially in the south.  Now, there is the ice age business... but that happens during the game.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2009, 01:34:26 AM »

Though i wonder how self-sufficient Norway is even with modern tech?  The loss of tech + even a mild nuclear winter might be expected to kill 99+% (besides the Sami) in a few years.

Oh, come on.  Norway did just fine in the middle ages.  I think it could easily support a population of 300,000 or so, especially in the south.  Now, there is the ice age business... but that happens during the game.
Yeah, but for much of it they had the advantage of the Medieval Climate optimum (which made agriculture possible in greenland). And were talking about weather worse than today's, even before an ice age.

 More importantly everyone had the skills, equipment, and social structure appropriate for the medieval conditions.  How long would it take for there to be enough oxen and horses to supply power?  I bet the gas runs out first.  How many people know how to sew by hand, bake bread, deliver a baby, or how to care for and butcher chickens?

How much of the middle age's prime farm land is under meters of concrete and steel?

Sure these things can be learned, but how many people will learn them in time?


I don't know the precise answer to any of these questions, but i suspect the population of scandinavia 20 years after the apocalypse will be significantly below the theoretical amount of medieval people that could have been supported (allowing for climate).   And it would probably take at least a couple more generations to achieve medieval population densities.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 01:45:40 AM by eleazzaar » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2009, 08:55:01 PM »

More importantly everyone had the skills, equipment, and social structure appropriate for the medieval conditions.  How long would it take for there to be enough oxen and horses to supply power?  I bet the gas runs out first.  How many people know how to sew by hand, bake bread, deliver a baby, or how to care for and butcher chickens?

How much of the middle age's prime farm land is under meters of concrete and steel?

Sure these things can be learned, but how many people will learn them in time?

I think you underestimate human ingenuity when faced with a desperate situation.    I think at "worst" it would drop down to hunter-gatherer, pre-agricultural society (and that's only where it's really, really cold).   I haven't yet got to my climate research yet, but I really think we can fudge the technology level here.  In the end it will come down to where we have 1% of current population or 5%.
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dracre
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« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 04:05:44 PM »

The currency needs to be something that has real value anywhere you go. In the 80's everything worked with electric batteries so how about using them as the general unit of value measurement?

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zenbitz
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 09:24:08 PM »

electric batteries work after 20 years?  I don't think any pre-war manufactured or non-local good passes the "cigarette" test.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2011, 11:01:10 PM »

Battery discussion split off.  Building your own battery does not seem like a particuarly useful CURRENCY.  Although there is a good pun there.
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laclongquan
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« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 10:41:40 AM »

A side note on population: as soon as colder climate kick in lead to a famine (high priced foods) situation, people will migrate to southern warmer lands. Why would they want to remain in a freezing areas like that. Population will drop like waterfall down to the number supportable by fishing, hunting, animal husbandary, and limited arable land. It's not a question of massacre or war casualties.
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dracre
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« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 11:37:53 AM »

A side note on population: as soon as colder climate kick in lead to a famine (high priced foods) situation, people will migrate to southern warmer lands. Why would they want to remain in a freezing areas like that. Population will drop like waterfall down to the number supportable by fishing, hunting, animal husbandary, and limited arable land. It's not a question of massacre or war casualties.

One of the ideas zenbitz had for the plot involves the idea of characters contemplating moving south, but the thing is that 20 years into the winter there's really no warmer lands. Food production has become practically impossible and people eat mostly canned food they have scavenged from the ruins of civilization.  Roll Eyes
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zenbitz
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« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2011, 09:32:14 PM »

You are both right.
They WILL migrate ... the cold is migrating with them.

I am still looking for a solution to the logical problem of moving all the way south way off the game world map.
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dracre
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« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2011, 09:52:39 PM »

I am still looking for a solution to the logical problem of moving all the way south way off the game world map.

How about the south is

A) Badly irradiated, or it's not but the people think it is
B) Occupied by soviets, slavers, cannibals or other dudes bad enough to keep people from wanting to go there
C) The player starts from south and moves northward. It's up to the player whether he wants to convince the northeners to move south or try to rebuild in the north

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zenbitz
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 12:14:03 AM »

ug, my fault I guess.  Wrong thread, wrong sub-forum.  Please start a thread in Writing forum!

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Gaspard
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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2011, 09:56:52 AM »

(...) Minor acts might raise the local trade prices (a strong incentive when you barely have enough bartering goods for another slice of lefse), while bigger or repeated outrages will see exile and violence introduced(...)

I like the thought that your rep in a given area might affect the traders' attitudes during bartering with the PC
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BobBobson
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2011, 11:17:59 AM »

(...) Minor acts might raise the local trade prices (a strong incentive when you barely have enough bartering goods for another slice of lefse), while bigger or repeated outrages will see exile and violence introduced(...)

I like the thought that your rep in a given area might affect the traders' attitudes during bartering with the PC

Especially if there could be a slightly more complex, realistic way of doing it than bad rep = higher price. Certain traders might know that they can rip off the goody-two-shoes who goes around rescuing cats from trees. And likewise (take that, Baldur's Gate reputation system!) if the infamous Butcher, thief, bandit and murderer, strolls into your shop, it doesn't make much sense for you to work your way onto his list of victims by insisting he pays higher prices on everything.
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rowanthepreacher
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« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 12:40:35 PM »

(...) Minor acts might raise the local trade prices (a strong incentive when you barely have enough bartering goods for another slice of lefse), while bigger or repeated outrages will see exile and violence introduced(...)

I like the thought that your rep in a given area might affect the traders' attitudes during bartering with the PC

Especially if there could be a slightly more complex, realistic way of doing it than bad rep = higher price. Certain traders might know that they can rip off the goody-two-shoes who goes around rescuing cats from trees. And likewise (take that, Baldur's Gate reputation system!) if the infamous Butcher, thief, bandit and murderer, strolls into your shop, it doesn't make much sense for you to work your way onto his list of victims by insisting he pays higher prices on everything.

The reason that bad characters are usually penalised is because otherwise it throws game balance right off. More loot + more experience + lower prices vs people smiling at you when you walk down the street?

I'd take the loot, xp and more loot anyday.
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