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Author Topic: PROPOSAL: Health and Damage  (Read 10976 times)
zenbitz
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2009, 01:19:12 AM »

It's just detail E.  Severed limb is basically death.

Quote
* The number of "hit locations" is reduced a number that can be shown on the mannequin.

I have explained previously why there are more than 7 or so.  It is only for armor customization. 
Effectively, you will have 7, maybe 8 hit locations (depending if you split up head into "face" and "brain pan".  These are just split into a few extra areas to play post-apocalypse barbie dress up with random junk as armor.  It doesn't really have a "medical" effect.  An arm wound is an arm wound, it doesn't really matter if you get hit in the elbow or wrist.


Quote
If you simply made a huge list of wounds, it would often not be clear from the mannequin which particular wound you had, since it probably won't be possible to distinguish a "cracked rib" from a "ruptured spleen" or a "punctured lung".

Again, this is just for flavor.   You could, for example, mouse over your poor "red" tummy and learn about which of your organs got rearranged.  Right before you realize that you are going to to bleed to death in the snow.




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eleazzaar
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2009, 05:25:01 PM »

It's just detail E.  Severed limb is basically death.

Quote from: eleazar
* The number of "hit locations" is reduced a number that can be shown on the mannequin.

I have explained previously why there are more than 7 or so.  It is only for armor customization. 
Effectively, you will have 7, maybe 8 hit locations (depending if you split up head into "face" and "brain pan".  These are just split into a few extra areas to play post-apocalypse barbie dress up with random junk as armor.  It doesn't really have a "medical" effect.  An arm wound is an arm wound, it doesn't really matter if you get hit in the elbow or wrist.

Lets look at how this fits into the game:

* you won't see the armor on your character in game
* it doesn't matter to combat
* It makes armor creation ~5 times more complicated than it needs to be.

The various systems of a game need to work together, as a coherent whole.  Designing up to 35 individual pieces of armor could be a cool feature in some game.  I understand why you might want a game that supports it.  But as you are describing it, this game doesn't support it.  That level of detail is out of place when considered with the rest of the game.

Quote from: eleazar
If you simply made a huge list of wounds, it would often not be clear from the mannequin which particular wound you had, since it probably won't be possible to distinguish a "cracked rib" from a "ruptured spleen" or a "punctured lung".

Again, this is just for flavor.   You could, for example, mouse over your poor "red" tummy and learn about which of your organs got rearranged.  Right before you realize that you are going to to bleed to death in the snow.

* So "red" means "you will die", and "black" means "you will die"?  What about if there's a doctor in the party?

* Also having tooltips with the knowledge of omniscient MDs strikes me as a little odd.  Wouldn't it fit better with the feel of our rough-and-tumble world, if things were described in terms of more general and obvious diagnosis?  I'm sure i wouldn't know if somebody had a "ruptured spleen" by looking at him. Why would the character?  But he should be able to see statuses like:
crushed rib cage,
disembowled
cracked skull
broken limbs
etc.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2009, 02:55:55 AM »

It's just detail E.  Severed limb is basically death.

Quote from: eleazar
* The number of "hit locations" is reduced a number that can be shown on the mannequin.

I have explained previously why there are more than 7 or so.  It is only for armor customization. 
Effectively, you will have 7, maybe 8 hit locations (depending if you split up head into "face" and "brain pan".  These are just split into a few extra areas to play post-apocalypse barbie dress up with random junk as armor.  It doesn't really have a "medical" effect.  An arm wound is an arm wound, it doesn't really matter if you get hit in the elbow or wrist.

Lets look at how this fits into the game:

* you won't see the armor on your character in game
* it doesn't matter to combat
* It makes armor creation ~5 times more complicated than it needs to be.
Well, I have not given up on graphical support for this in the future.  Just because it's not practical at the moment, doesn't mean it will NEVER be practical.   It seems to me not so difficult to add this type of detail in the inventory screen, it's the animated frames with different "partial" skins that hasn't been "solved" with the fife engine.

It DOES matter to combat, it just doesn't matter to wounding.  I don't see why this concept is so baffling.  Characters have "systems" that can be damaged (arms, legs, head, etc.) these systems are composed of 1-5 target locations that *may* have differential protection.  From a mechanics perspective, it's trivial to expand from 7 locations to 35 or 735.  The computer doesn't care, it's just a larger array.

The detailed system REDUCES trivially to the simpler one.   Just set all the armor values for arm location to the same value.  Just making aiming at each "sub" location the same modifier to hit. 

It's my experience with PROGRAMMING that it's way better to allow a more complicated system in the beginning.   The reverse becomes basically impossible.     Let's say we declare now that we will have 7 hit locations.  Then we decide we have artists and devs who *can* handle the level of detail... it's harder to retrofit the code and the mechanics from simple->complex than vice versa.  From a mechanics standpoint, systems can basically be arbitrarily complex, it will still be instantantanous compared to drawing stuff on the screen.

You can always say "fuck it" and design simple abstractions on a more detailed system (if you run out of time or effort).... you cannot usually do the reverse.

As for designing - it actually makes life easier in some way, because you don't have to abstract something like the difference between a short sleeved shirt and a long sleeved one.  You just add the extra locations that are covered.


Quote from: eleazar
If you simply made a huge list of wounds, it would often not be clear from the mannequin which particular wound you had, since it probably won't be possible to distinguish a "cracked rib" from a "ruptured spleen" or a "punctured lung".

Again, this is just for flavor.   You could, for example, mouse over your poor "red" tummy and learn about which of your organs got rearranged.  Right before you realize that you are going to to bleed to death in the snow.

* So "red" means "you will die", and "black" means "you will die"?  What about if there's a doctor in the party?

* Also having tooltips with the knowledge of omniscient MDs strikes me as a little odd.  Wouldn't it fit better with the feel of our rough-and-tumble world, if things were described in terms of more general and obvious diagnosis?  I'm sure i wouldn't know if somebody had a "ruptured spleen" by looking at him. Why would the character?  But he should be able to see statuses like:
crushed rib cage,
disembowled
cracked skull
broken limbs
etc.
[/quote]

I thought of this actually... but I didn't post it because I thought it would confuse the issue... yes, the details on mouseover could depend on your (or your buddy's) doc skill... that would be cool.

The difference between red and black, is that "red" means you could possibly recover, given "excellent" medical attention - which may not be available in most instances.  Black means "gone".  A similar fantasy mechanic might be:

Red = "You are dead but can be ressurected"
Black = "You cannot even be ressurected"

I know we are arguing El, but I appreciate you keeping me honest at least.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2009, 01:14:06 PM »


At first the complexity of the armor/defensive apparel system could work in a very simplified manner when it comes to graphics.
If the inventory screen provided you with all the different areas you could cover: breastplate, sleeves, gloves, shoulder pads, knee protection, boots etc. Then the rest is pretty much coding.

Also a question: zenbitz, you're thinking of going with the fallout-like targeting in combat ?

I wouldn't mind if the "dressing-up" process is slightly more complex than what is graphically presented as a character sprite in the game view.

If the player starts out with a generic outfit - as an example: the falloutish Vault jumpsuit - then most of the slots could be inaccessible or 'gray' on the Inventory screen paper-doll. Because the generic outfit does not offer protection there.
But the clothing should be layered and on top of that jumpsuit you could add all the breastplates and animal hides and wolfskin wristbands etc. So even if the character doesn't look all cool in-game, then you could oogle your eyeballs out and drool all over your fancy rugged equipment when you open up your Inventory screen. But mainly the combat will be more complex, unnecessarily so? I guess it comes down to taste, then. And everybody should know about arguing over that...

But later, some time in the very distant future, when the FIFE engine has been improved and the code is complex enough to allow various overlays or somesuch then the in-game character sprite could be more complex-looking too and just make it all look more cool; but the cool-ness is not a priority at this point, or is it ?
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2009, 01:23:35 PM »

I second Gaspard's proposal: we shouldn't worry about the graphical representation at this point. The mechanics can be more complex than what you can see in mapview. As long as there is some visual or text description elsewhere to make these mechanics transparent to the player, I wouldn't mind these complex mechanics even if they don't affect characters visually in the mapview.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2009, 11:04:41 PM »


At first the complexity of the armor/defensive apparel system could work in a very simplified manner when it comes to graphics.
If the inventory screen provided you with all the different areas you could cover: breastplate, sleeves, gloves, shoulder pads, knee protection, boots etc. Then the rest is pretty much coding.

Yes, from this perspective, 35 spots doesn't seem like that much... most of the "torso" areas are going to be combined.

Quote
Also a question: zenbitz, you're thinking of going with the fallout-like targeting in combat ?

My original idea was to have your aiming ability depend on a couple things:
1) how far away you are (modified with a telescopic sight if you have it)
2) Your skill level with the weapon
3) The amount of time you spend aiming (for a ranged weapon).

So, if you take 0 actions to aim, you are just hacking/shooting blindly.  Location hit will depend only on relative postiion.

1 action to aim, you could aim high (usually hit arm/head/upper body) or low (leg/lower body).. maybe left/right as well.  2 actions you could aim at one of the 7 major areas.   More than that, you could pick a specific armor location (one of 35).    For some weapons/skill levels "full aiming" would not be possible.

In melee combat... I'm not sure how to do targeting, but I suppose it could be similar, except perhaps without the "aiming" actions.... the higher your relative skill level, the more fine grained targeting you are allowed.  I don't think I would let people aim at "elbows" with a club, however... maybe.
Quote
If the player starts out with a generic outfit - as an example: the falloutish Vault jumpsuit - then most of the slots could be inaccessible or 'gray' on the Inventory screen paper-doll. Because the generic outfit does not offer protection there.

I think the "basic" starting equipment package is "winter clothes".  Depending on your initial start up stuff, you might have some bits of armor too.    The "winter clothes" doesn't have to all look the same though - we could maybe have a few different options ("style" only, very little or no game effect).
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Gaspard
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« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2009, 11:29:21 PM »

I think the "basic" starting equipment package is "winter clothes".  Depending on your initial start up stuff, you might have some bits of armor too.    The "winter clothes" doesn't have to all look the same though - we could maybe have a few different options ("style" only, very little or no game effect).

in short - just eye-candy
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