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Author Topic: PROPOSAL: Health and Damage  (Read 10977 times)
zenbitz
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« on: August 24, 2009, 10:45:02 PM »


http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Health_and_Damage

This is mostly done now.  Prompted by the GUI discussions (which I will cross post to that thread).  We still need to define various interesting "wounds" (broken thumb, ruptured spleen, cracked skull etc.) and define the various effects in terms of the "wound class system" (as well as their various effects on skill and tasks...)

In some ways, what I have proposed is a system where are the "real" damage is done by critical hits (in the Fallout or Rolemaster sense)... but with the (interesting???) twist that critical hits are actually quite common (which makes the combat short and brutal)

Enjoy... but not too much you sickos!
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shevegen
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« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2009, 12:38:38 PM »

How about this is taking to a more extreme depending on the weapon type?

So for example, a hammer would get a much higher chance for fracturing bones. A rapier or spear could have a higher chance to aim at specific body parts (i.e. head).
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Gaspard
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« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2009, 03:35:34 PM »

That's probably more to the combat section ? Weapon speed and special qualities etc, hammer big and slow but packs a punch, a dagger good for backstabbing Roll Eyes
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zenbitz
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« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2009, 08:04:28 PM »

My thought (I think this is in combat proposal) that there are cutting / thrusting / smashing weapons.  Guns might be a 4th class... they are part thrusting part smashing...   Also explosion, fire, etc. -- other rare damages.

 They would be associated with different "Named" wounds, but the effects (major, minor, etc.) would be mostly the same.  Like you wouldn't get a broken bone from a spear, but you wouldn't get a perforated lung from a 2x4 swung at you.

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Gaspard
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« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2009, 09:32:15 AM »

A rib could pierce your lung...
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zenbitz
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« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2009, 08:11:07 PM »

sure, a machete could break your arm without cutting it half off....   I suppose technically what we could do would be to define a hundred (or so) different types of wounds and then weapon classes would have various probabilities of causing said wounds based on "effectiveness" of strike (and target location, of course).

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Gaspard
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« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2009, 08:34:15 PM »

If you're saying combat's going to be a motherfucker one way or another then a broken bone or pierced lung could be a critical that just depends on the location. You get a critical in your foot a random toe goes flyin'. You'll still be limping that foot.

And I don't really see how you can get hit by a sledge hammer and walk away without a broken bone or a serious injury
« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 08:35:56 PM by Gaspard » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2009, 08:57:48 PM »

If you're saying combat's going to be a motherfucker one way or another then a broken bone or pierced lung could be a critical that just depends on the location. You get a critical in your foot a random toe goes flyin'. You'll still be limping that foot.

Yes, it doesn't matter.  It's just "color".  And to be clear - "critical hits" are just an analogy to other game systems.  The REGULAR hits will be treated like most game treat criticals.

Quote
And I don't really see how you can get hit by a sledge hammer and walk away without a broken bone or a serious injury

Just replace "sledge hammer" with any reasonable weapon and "get hit" with "get hit real solid" then you have an idea about how the combat system will work.    I would advise you not to get hit.   But for hand weapons like sledge hammers, armor is going to be pretty important.  For guns and arrows... well, don't get hit!
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GarmGarf
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2009, 04:40:01 AM »

Quote
Some roleplayers may want a character that actually works opposite to this... they thrive on chaos, combat, and other anti-social behaviors. Effectively, the person is insane. I am unsure how to implement this for player characters in the game.

A lot of games implement certain units/characters that make use of the concept of playing on the edge via their health meters; i.e: some games have units/characters who have bonuses which gain magnitude proportional to the closeness the unit's/character's health is to being equal to zero.

You could do a similar thing for certain characters and stress; e.g: that certain characters are still totally screwed when their stress value reaches 100, but when it is at 99 or less, they still get the normal disadvantages, but also get certain bonuses (which have less magnitude the closer the stress level is to being 0). I can't think of any examples of what though at the moment.



An additional idea for blood would be to implement a separate blood meter, but that may be too much.

I once thought of an idea for alcohol (could also be used for certain other drugs), which was that as a character consumes alcohol, a drunkenness meter would be produced from one side of their fatigue meter, overlapping with it, and would grow in length as more alcoholic is consumed. If the drunkenness level surpassed the level of current cautiousness, then the character would pass out.

Anyway, you could do a similar thing for blood, possibly with the damage meter. Not sure if that is really realistic though. Maybe you could do it with the fatigue meter, but instead of unconsciousness or death occurring when the (lack of) blood level surpasses the current fatigue level, it could instead start decreasing the current fatigue value. This idea is a bit "iffy" though.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2009, 08:47:38 PM »

Quote
Some roleplayers may want a character that actually works opposite to this... they thrive on chaos, combat, and other anti-social behaviors. Effectively, the person is insane. I am unsure how to implement this for player characters in the game.

A lot of games implement certain units/characters that make use of the concept of playing on the edge via their health meters; i.e: some games have units/characters who have bonuses which gain magnitude proportional to the closeness the unit's/character's health is to being equal to zero.

You could do a similar thing for certain characters and stress; e.g: that certain characters are still totally screwed when their stress value reaches 100, but when it is at 99 or less, they still get the normal disadvantages, but also get certain bonuses (which have less magnitude the closer the stress level is to being 0). I can't think of any examples of what though at the moment.

There are quite  a few different models, but the hard part is balancing them.  RPG players already have a tendency towards the psychopathic.



Quote
An additional idea for blood would be to implement a separate blood meter, but that may be too much.

I once thought of an idea for alcohol (could also be used for certain other drugs), which was that as a character consumes alcohol, a drunkenness meter would be produced from one side of their fatigue meter, overlapping with it, and would grow in length as more alcoholic is consumed. If the drunkenness level surpassed the level of current cautiousness, then the character would pass out.

I thought about tracking blood loss specifically, but it doesn't really add too much.  Basically, if the wound is bad enough that you are going to bleed out quick, then it's probably hopeless.    If it's a slow bleeder, then you just need to get patched up.    Hmmm... I hadn't really considering drinking yourself unconscious!   I suppose I would treat it like a poison that increases "Damage", decreases "Fatigue" (slightly), and repairs stress (permanently).  The health damage will eventually knock you out (and also impairs skills), but recovers on it's own quickly.  (With some kind of hangover to Fatigue/Damage for 24 hours or so)
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GarmGarf
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« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2009, 09:45:48 PM »

The health damage will eventually knock you out

Do you mean fatigue?


Anyway, how exactly do poisons work?

In Arcanum, there was a sort of "poison damage" value, to distinguish strong poisons from weaker poisons. This "poison damage" would be applied to the targeted character (after being reduced by poison resistance and such), and it would give them a poison level equal to the inflicted "poison damage". Every so often (the equivalent to a turn or something), the current poison level of each character would be reduced by their recovery rate or something like that, and then each character would receive corporal damage equal to their current poison level. Furthermore, if the character was poisoned by the same or a different source again, and more "poison damage" was inflicted, then the character's poison level would be increased; i.e: different and same poisons stacked.

In PARPG, will different and same poisons stack, and will poisons diminish in effect as the character recovers from them?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:48:27 PM by GarmGarf » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2009, 08:35:59 PM »

Poisons:

The way I see to do it is to define what parameters poisons have:    What damage gauges do they effect, and how fast do they recover.  In addition, "wound" effects could be defined (paralysis limbs, causes death if not treated).  Some Writer/content developer can just 'create' a poison type that fits their needs.

Drugs, basically the same way (although they may BOOST stats, too, temporaily).

And I did mean Alcohol effects "Damage" (remember, it's subdual damage, not lethal damage) not Fatigue.    I need a better name for the "Damage" gauge... I wanted to call it "Health" but decided that it should go from 0 to 100 like the others for consistency.  "Subdual Damage" seems too long.  Hit points! (ugh).

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Gaspard
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 10:23:24 PM »

Let's continue from here:
http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=413.15

good start.   Current "plans" give the player three "damage tracks" (akin to health or hit points) - "Damage" "Exhaustion" and "Stress".

I am still looking for a better way to state "the inverse of health" than "physical body damage"... corporal punishment?

It seems like it should be inverted so that all 3 go in the same "direction" (i.,e increased stress or increased exhaustion == increased damage)

we could invert all of them but I like "stress". 

What do you imagine the graphical gauges would look like or what would best convey the information ?

Right now the Fatigue'O'Meter would look like this horizontal gauge tube, that fills up,
I'd imagine Stress the same. So if these two fill up, the Health State Mannequin Boy would switch the hue of it's colour to indicate that you're more susceptible to damage than when you're well-rested and chillin'.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2009, 11:31:58 PM »

to me, all three are analogous... so you would get 3 bars like an RGB slider in every drawing app since 1997 or so.

The (inverted) health bar is the same - it represents "global subdual damage" (bruising, scrapes, minor sprains/strains/muscle pulls).  The "Health State" manniquin would represent only actual "wounds" which are more serious and slower to heal.  "Heath" (global) would return pretty fast after you are given first aid and get some rest and food.

I am not completely married to this concept though... that's just the current way I am thinking about it.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2009, 10:07:36 PM »

I'm not clear on all this, but it sounds like it needs an overly complex GUI.

IMHO these concepts of health and damage need to be somehow streamlined, abstracted, or simplified if they are ever going to be presented successfully by the GUI.

For instance it sounds like "wounds" "hit locations" and the "health state" mannequin are only loosely related.  They should be integrated something like this:

* The number of "hit locations" is reduced a number that can be shown on the mannequin.

* There is one "wound" text description for each location at each of these color levels of damage:

    Green: Healthy
    Yellow: Minor wound
    Red: Useless part (or worse)
    Black: Severed/Dead[/li]

So for instance a foot at level Yellow would be described as "sprained left foot", while at red it would be a "broken left foot".

It certainly wouldn't cover all the possible wounds one might receive in real life, but it's concise and understandable, and still more detailed than the vast majority of games.  You would be able to learn that when "hit location X", turned a certain color, that there would be a single specific result.

If you simply made a huge list of wounds, it would often not be clear from the mannequin which particular wound you had, since it probably won't be possible to distinguish a "cracked rib" from a "ruptured spleen" or a "punctured lung".



...Though i'm not sure there's much point in having rules for "severed" limbs when the graphics surely won't be able to show it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 10:12:52 PM by eleazzaar » Logged
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