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Author Topic: PERMADEATH  (Read 45000 times)
Captain Obvious
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« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2009, 04:56:10 PM »

What is exactly the trouble with game saving exactly ?

 if a player want to play hardcore with permadeath, he just had to not save the game, no ?
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2009, 05:29:19 PM »

Offering a permadeath mode as _optional_ choice sounds useful to me. Of course you could stick to permadeath rules yourself but as we plan to include a hardcore mode anyway, why not integrate permadeath into it instead of leaving it to player to not cheat. If players want to save, they could simply play the game in normal mode. Or we even leave permadeath as an option that can be turned on or off at the beginning of the game.
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Deschain
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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2009, 11:31:17 AM »

optional, a planescape death mode (with some skill or experience loss, for the shock Tongue )
and a permadeath mode, but in different channel/server


look if you made a big progress with your permadeath character and a undead comes and kill you
and nobody at an advanced stage will turn to permadeath if is a optional mode to use any time...
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Dave Matney
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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2009, 04:22:11 PM »

Offering a permadeath mode as _optional_ choice sounds useful to me. Of course you could stick to permadeath rules yourself but as we plan to include a hardcore mode anyway, why not integrate permadeath into it instead of leaving it to player to not cheat. If players want to save, they could simply play the game in normal mode. Or we even leave permadeath as an option that can be turned on or off at the beginning of the game.

On top of that, it should be set to insta-kill you if you cheat, like Hexen did if you tried to use any Doom cheats.

Player: Crap, I'm running out of room in my backpack... *typing* davelikestocheat...  WTF?!
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meinmartini
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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2009, 04:30:27 PM »

Offering a permadeath mode as _optional_ choice sounds useful to me. Of course you could stick to permadeath rules yourself but as we plan to include a hardcore mode anyway, why not integrate permadeath into it instead of leaving it to player to not cheat. If players want to save, they could simply play the game in normal mode. Or we even leave permadeath as an option that can be turned on or off at the beginning of the game.
Enable a warning message for gamers who want to enable it. If they want to enable Permadeath, they are unable to disable it once the game begins.
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maximinus
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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2009, 05:03:27 PM »

If we want PARPG to be a decent size then we have to allow saving just to let the player sleep, surely? Or are you guys really hardcore?  Grin
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Dave Matney
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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2009, 05:39:58 PM »

I have the only existing cheat code, as well as the easiest difficulty level, named after me, so that shows how hardcore I am. :p
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zenbitz
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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2009, 10:48:52 PM »

If we want PARPG to be a decent size then we have to allow saving just to let the player sleep, surely? Or are you guys really hardcore?  Grin

Yes, this is where "no save" kinda breaks down.  I guess the standard mod (kinda old school Ultima?) is to only allow saving at defined locations and/or times.  Like when you are safely snuggled in your bedroll in your igloo.  Or at the local inn.

The problem with THIS is that that if you have to fart around moving for 20 minutes (REAL TIME) to get back to the place where you got bushwhacked, and have to do this over and over... no one likes that.   It's tricky, because I'd like to say "DUDE YOU ARE PLAYING THE GAME WRONG IF YOU KEEP GETTING KILLED CARELESSLY", I also don't think there should be a right way or wrong way to play, and i know that many, many people (myself included) will play a game "Doom Style" (Wolf3d style?) where you just keep trying to blast your way through the same situation over and over until you crack it.  I mean, even if the "easy" way is to use some stealth/non combat skill around the obstical, it might take me a good 20 tries before I consider other options.

The only "true" way around this is (I think) to Deus Ex Machina the player around instead of killing him, but this would get silly if you did this every time.... so I guess we have to just have "standard" save any-time slots and give an option at game start to disable save in combat and/or save when awake (so you have to find a safe place to sleep to save). 

You can't have NO save, what if your 'puter crashes? (Due to some *other* app, of course!)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 10:57:41 PM by zenbitz » Logged

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tZee
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« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2009, 01:33:38 PM »

Some notes on the programming side:

-Abusing load/reload in fight to get critical hits: Can be avoided. Random numbers do not exist on computers. They are pseudo random generated from a seed (you usually take the unix timestamp). If we save the seed at the beginning of the combat and the number of times the random function has been called we can restore the exact "random state" and the hit will always be (non)critical, no matter how many times you reload.
-Only autosave: As long as there is a save file you will be able to reload as you like. My workaround for such games was simple: copy&paste the autosave file and when you die/fail replace it with the copy, start the game and bingo! There is my desired game state.

Wizard mode: Might spoil the fun.. Like walkthroughs spoil your Adventure games etc.
Permadeath mode: Not "cheat free" applicable if the game is supposed to last longer than a few hours. (People have real lifes and need to sleep, as mentioned above. Cheesy) And because we are not going to run a hosted multiplayer part, like closed BNet, there is no way to prevent the "workaround" i mentioned above. But I like the idea of counting the number of deaths (and giving a little penalty on death) and publishing them as a highscore.
I guess there could be a real harcore optional mode which disables saving and you have to finish the game in one go and depending how far you get you rank in a highscore. (The real harcore people will leave the game running till they finish, like they will leave their linux machines running for 3 years straight and then brag about it. Cheesy)
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2009, 02:36:51 PM »

AFAICT the idea of a hardcore mode is not to disallow saving in general but you can only save when you exit the game; actually saving is forced when exiting the game. So there would be just one save slot that gets overwritten once you save again. This way you don't have to play the whole game non stop but can continue later but once you've died the savegame slot gets overwritten so you can't try again by simply loading.
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tZee
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« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2009, 03:08:55 PM »

Well, then stop the game when you think it's getting dangerous and copy&paste the savegame, then continue.  Tongue
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2009, 06:40:44 PM »

There are always ways to cheat for the user :-) If they want to cheat, they'll do it. The permadeath mode is for the serious users who appreciate the challenge. Actually you can play a lot of RPGs in permadeath mode without the native support of this option by the game itself. But we can make things more comfortable by actually automating the steps that the user would normally manually do: just save in one slot, just save when you actually exit the game, delete the last saved game once you died, etc.

Btw.: in permadeath mode there should be the autosaves on a regular basis just in case the game crashes for whatever reason there may be. Nothing more frustrating than playing in permadeath mode and your game crashed in an odd situation and you actually play for a couple of hours and all progress is lost.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 06:42:22 PM by mvBarracuda » Logged
maximinus
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« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2009, 06:55:39 PM »

Perhaps another mechanic might work:

During the course of the game, the player in PERMADEATH gets 'saves' given when he completes certain quests. He can save wherever he wants and use up a 'save' in the process. The random number generator is seeded at the start of the game, so the player gets the same game, thus reloading to get a better 'roll' is much less reduced.

Of course, you could still game it slightly but you have to choose where to 'save your saves'. Also we could restrict how often these saves are given out, but this can be playtested. We could also give out the saves on mainline stories, limiting the number of side quests possible maybe.
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shevegen
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« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2009, 01:47:16 AM »

Optional seems reasonable. Choice is never wrong, and the last proposal by maximinus is a hybrid system which could appeal to some players too (where they save between completing difficult parts, but if they later die, they dont have to start from 0% but perhaps only from 40%)
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NineOfHearts
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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2009, 06:08:20 PM »

Gents,

Judging by quite extensive computer gaming experience (20+ years) I am absolutely sure that there is no better way to ruin a perfect game by disallowing save games at a time the player needs it. Otherwise the player is forced to replay thousand times the same parts of the game -- which doesn't make the game funnier at all.

Of course, we could easily implement the "ironman" mode, but purely for those who know what they are asking for. However, the game features should be fully presented in the normal mode as well.


My thoughts exactly.
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