Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Pages: [1] 2
Print
Author Topic: Food, Water and Endurance  (Read 9480 times)
zenbitz
Moderator
Community member

Posts: 1164



View Profile
« on: February 16, 2009, 08:18:46 PM »

Quote
<Lamoot> what if you had a World-map stamina metre? You could only travel so much on the world map until it ran out. Once it ran out, you would have to rest or get some stat penalties. By having food/water with your, the stamina bar would decrease slower. Food/water wouldn't have any other penalty effect on you though, but if you had food/water in your ivnentroy, the stamina meter would grow faster when resting

<Lamoot> this way food/water are not mandatory, but give you a nice bonus when traveling, regaining world-map stamina

    * Stamina bar would decrease when moving on the world map
    * Stamina bar would not be reset when exiting/entering the world map
    * Stamina bar would increase through time, when not moving on the world map. It would increase faster through resting and even faster if you had food with you
    * Stamina bar wouldn't decrease as fast when you had food with you.

Open Thread for discussion of food, water, stamina, resting - other "housekeeping" functions of a player, especially when traveling
Logged

We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
Lamoot
Community member

Posts: 161


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 08:31:04 PM »

I agree with Lamoot's proposal, but would like to hear other opinions on this approach and proposals for perhaps a different approach.
Logged
zenbitz
Moderator
Community member

Posts: 1164



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2009, 02:11:19 AM »

Well, first off - let us dispense of fresh water in a snow world.

Here are the (paraphrased) food rules from Aftermath! RPG (all this stuff depends on health stat and a bunch of random rolls):

You have to have a food supply or you will slowly die.
You can go maybe 6 days on half rations with no problem.    You can go 3 with no food at all and still be OK . After that you start to suffer effects that get worse and worse.   As time passes, first you are in a permanent state of Partial Fatigue, then Full fatigue, Then unconscious - death follows in hours.  In Aftermath! partial fatigue was a -5% on basically all roles, and -25% of speed and deftness stats.  Full fatigue was -10% on all rolls, -50% speed and deftness.  This is not a proposal, just an example.  Death probably takes 10 days+ of starvation, depending on.  In essence, the starvation eats at your health stat until you are dead.  When you find food, it reverses the effects (assuming you find enough)

The fatigue effects on the speed stat would effect the characters travel time (if they were walking).

It's clear that no one wants to click-and-drag food around in the inventory - eating is automatic.  I also think that you should NOT travel 24/7 across the world map.  You should be generally travelling 10-12 hr/day.  You should be able to force march for a time, but risk exhaustion.  (An aside, you could also "fast march" and double your regular speed for a few hours, before you risk exhaustion).  Could also take some kind of "non lethal" damage as well.    It seems that it would be tedious for long trips to click "sleep 8 hours" once/day - so you could just set up a "day travel" vs. "night travel" option at the beginning of your trek.  Maybe assign some time to finding food (see below) - or let players get a little for free.

If you don't have food in your inventory - you have to spend some of your travel time hunting/fishing/foraging (both woodland foraging and urban ruin foraging).  This should be a one click "hunt for X hours" interface - player should not have to do any mechanical monkey drills - you just make some skill roll and get some food depending on where you are.  Boy, how much would it suck to save up 4 hours for foraging - you have no food - and you get bupkis!

Now add weather on top of this...


Logged

We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
qubodup
Admin
Community member

Posts: 261



View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2009, 05:13:17 AM »

Food and sleep management don't fit into my wet dreams of PARPG. Grin

How could such a mechanic not be boring and repetitive?
Logged
mvBarracuda
Admin
Community member

Posts: 1308



View Profile Email
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2009, 07:49:47 AM »

Play Realms of Arkania 1 and you'll see that food, water and sleep management as well as diseases can be a somewhat fun game mechanics! I'll elaborate on it later this week.
Logged
zenbitz
Moderator
Community member

Posts: 1164



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2009, 08:25:39 AM »

qubo - the basic concept is like this:

There has to be challenges in your game to overcome.  Some of them are active (enemies, quests), and some are passive - environmental stuff (weather, hunger, radiation, disease).   Some random encounters (a polar bear and cub) might be somewhat in between.

Is avoiding radiation "boring and repetitive" in a PARPG?    Avoiding freezing to death, and starvation can be worked in, too - without forcing the player to "do" much - they just have to worry about it a little.  It can also be used to restrict freedom of movement - maybe to get to a certain part of the map you need to get either
1) faster transport
2) better foraging skill
3) A "short cut" path (maybe buy a map?)

Because otherwise, you starve just trying to hike across norway.

I think everyone agrees that the the implementation could be horrible... but we are just pushing it as a concept to explore.
If it's in the game - it's obviously trivial to turn off via config programatticaly if it turns out we suck and can't make it not tedious.
Logged

We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
Kukkakaali
Community member

Posts: 40


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2009, 01:53:20 PM »

I think that normal activities like, eating, drinking, sleeping ect. should be done automaticly so that the player could focus on the
real game instead of petting the character, since the ideas not to make a sims clone with snow and walking but making a good game in a
post apocalyptic scenery, i think that the developement should be focused on the way fallout guided.. more intresting dialogs less boring
things that you will just have to do.

Yes i understand that some times you will have to take a piss but you dont have to include that into a game..
Logged
mvBarracuda
Admin
Community member

Posts: 1308



View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2009, 02:13:05 PM »

Depends on how you define "automatically". I like how it was handled in ROA1. Your characters basically automatically consumed the food and water from their inventory but if they ran out of food or water you died from starvation / dehydration. That could be a nice survival aspect but we would need to carefully balance it.

ROA1 might not be a good role model in this field for PARPG considering that it was a multi PC party RPG. So you had up to 6 PCs in your party and obviously just one of them did need to have the necessary find food / water in the wildness skills. As we plan to go down the one PC + recruitable optional NPC route, that might not really work out as it would make the skill pretty mandatory for your PC.
Logged
Lamoot
Community member

Posts: 161


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2009, 08:13:19 PM »

Arguments from both sides are valid. We won't know for sure which choice is truly better if we don't actually test the mechanics. But I think we all agree we should avoid tedious mechanics or tedious implementations of possibly cool mechanics. I'm still a believer food/water mechanic can be done right.
Logged
shanxi
Community member

Posts: 11


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2009, 01:01:14 PM »

I'm in favour of this, provided that food/water can be consumed automatically, perhaps with a slider to ration yourself and grade the bonus you get (this kind of detail might make it too complex), but I like the extra level of realism.  It would be too much of a pain to have to manually eat and drink every so often, though.
Logged
Mazon
Community member

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2009, 02:48:31 PM »

Radiation that makes -hp as long as you stay in that range like poison clouds or similar could be cool but boring and tendious stuff just because they are like that in the real world still are boring and tendious in a game.

Like walking slower because you picked up some stuff makes me crazy because then you want to go and sell that stuff and it takes like forever to get there. Or otherwise to throw things away. You stay on that limit and have to open a inventory window like every 5min becaus eyou have to sort and throw things away.

Food and water/drinks that gives boosts of some kind. Radtiated water that boost your aim or adrenaline or stuff like that. Things that you dont have to use but maybe get a boost if you do.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:51:36 PM by Mazon » Logged
Gaspard
Community member

Posts: 479


The Blackest Heart


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2009, 03:33:52 PM »

ideas
- character specialization 1 - you can have high endurance and survival/wilderness skill and travel on foot/your own sledge but then you have to find/prepare/buy the rations - cheaper (you could actually butcher random encounter bears-cubs for meat hides to sell)
- character specialization 2 - you have high charisma and haggle and get yourself on a caravan or hire a sledge-driver with rations - more expensive and maybe less flexible as in where you can go, but you have to worry about it less + during random encounters the driver might also act as a mercenary

ways how the environment affects you:

lets say the game starts, you're in a room (your hut whatever) you run out into the open and enter world map and try to walk to a nearby settlement. You automatically exit world map and you get a message "You stupid f. forgot to wear a coat, you froze to death" with a nice animation or still of a dead body/skeleton in snow

The right approach would be to instead wear a piece of clothing at all times. let's say at first you get a heavy woolly cardigan off your bed that you wear on top of your neutral clothing (fallout had jumpsuit, some games have you walking around butt-naked, some have underwear whatnot). heavier armor (a beaten trash can lid) goes on top of the mandatory warm clothes. Later on in the game you might find more high-tech polymer-type jumpsuits in military installations or wherever that protect against the cold. 

I wouldn't find that very tedious. It's sort of part of your character configuration. During the game like perks of special abilities one might get as they level up you find clothing that's lighter and/or more durable. Brainstorm alert: Maybe in a frozen military-class sub you might find a Fremen stillsuit-like suit that helps you preserve your bodily fluids.

I mean in Fallout the clothing/armor was mainly for defence. OK power armor gave you strength, logical too for the exoskeleton. I'm not saying that we have to have magical amulets and rings, but the clothing might be an integral element in the game for survival - you mess with it during the character creation phase and a little at the beginning but then you play the game freely
Logged
mvBarracuda
Admin
Community member

Posts: 1308



View Profile Email
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2009, 03:48:07 PM »

Requiring clothes to not freeze to death sounds like a good idea to me. It makes sense that the clothes you wear affect your character even in a low fantasy setting. I'm all for it gaspard.
Logged
zenbitz
Moderator
Community member

Posts: 1164



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2009, 12:41:30 AM »

Requiring clothes to not freeze to death sounds like a good idea to me. It makes sense that the clothes you wear affect your character even in a low fantasy setting. I'm all for it gaspard.

I thought about this a bit.  If it's already cold when the game starts, PC already has winter clothes sufficient for non-extreme (example, bad storm) weather.

If you need these clothes to survive, then stripping PC (or NPC) is tantamount to killing him... so why bother to make a rule?

I guess I could imagine an initial quest where you had to get warm clothes... a little silly though if you just keep them the whole game.

EDIT:  Although... if you could move to a wamer place, AND having bulky winter clothes was a hindrance... then it would be like a level up in reverse!
As you move south, you don't need the clothes anymore (can carry more, etc.).    But you should probably cache them somewhere in case of bad weather or a trip north.



« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 12:44:35 AM by zenbitz » Logged

We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
zenbitz
Moderator
Community member

Posts: 1164



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2009, 12:49:55 AM »

ideas
- character specialization 1 - you can have high endurance and survival/wilderness skill and travel on foot/your own sledge but then you have to find/prepare/buy the rations - cheaper (you could actually butcher random encounter bears-cubs for meat hides to sell)
- character specialization 2 - you have high charisma and haggle and get yourself on a caravan or hire a sledge-driver with rations - more expensive and maybe less flexible as in where you can go, but you have to worry about it less + during random encounters the driver might also act as a mercenary

These are good!  Write up more and put them in another thread.  Like "thug" (mercenary), "doc", "handyman/crafter", "scavenger".   I would also split up your number 2 into "schmoozer" (someone with leadership/people skills) and "business man" (can also be combined with scavenger).

Just for the record, I would avoid making mandatory character classes, but some templates will be useful for people who never played before or aren't into 40 minutes of character generation clicking.    Also - all of these types can be "youngster" (raised post ruin) or "oldster"
Logged

We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Jump to: