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Author Topic: Designing ex-Soviet Baltic States territory  (Read 22988 times)
Gaspard
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 12:03:35 PM »

Haah. Well, as we are dealing with THE two sides here - me backed by the Estonian historians and my family and egalor with the Russian equivalents I bet this discussion could go on forever.

Neither of us was there either 18 August, 1944 or any other date til well maybe the re-claiming the Independence at the end of the millenium. And we both have our own 'official' documents that could be interpreted either way, really, there is a lot of semantics involved.

Personally I'm against portraying The Baltic States, Estonia included as a neo-nazi nest, even in a fictional alt-history world what PARPG world is, in it's essence (although a skinhead-neonazi-gang/group, sure, why not, that does not label a whole nation wrongfully a country of monsters). It is a soft spot, I must admit and might A) be taken as an insult by certain people and B) wrongly influence the parties that are not involved in the current political-historical discussion between Estonian Republic and Russian Federation that have not yet officially concluded. So that's my two cents here.

As for the current status of Estonia, well.. SS are not honoured or revered on a state level in any way. No way. The men themselves might be, who happened to fight in the SS ranks. Men of Estonian blood who risked their future reputation (which is the case today) to fight for their country. If you look at the numbers of deserters from the SS ranks you'll see that as soon as it became clear that the Germans are pulling out and leaving Estonia for Soviet Russia to invade, anyone who could defect did so and went into hiding to fight 'underground' (the guerilla fighters, forest brothers etc).

But can you, egalor, tell my why the liberating Red Army never left Tallinn and Estonia after the Nazi infestation was taken care of ? Why was Estonia for fifty years forcefully held behind the Iron Curtain and thus incapacitated and unable to communicate with the West ?

Again - the SS or the Red Army were the only ways how Estonian men could get their hands on weapons to protect their homeland from invaders. Labeling Estonia as pro-nazi is A) incorrect and B) politically aggressive. Estonia was, has ever been and most probably always will be pro-independent Estonia. Also Estonia actively communicates and interacts with other countries and is in no way xenophobic or anti-anything as long as no one, again, threatens it's independence.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 12:10:49 PM by Gaspard » Logged
egalor
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2009, 12:52:51 PM »

Ok, this could could easily evolve into a "holy war" here, just like between the owners of XBox/PS3, IE/FIrefox, PHP/ASP, WOW/LA2, USSR/RF, etc.

I won't argue here in the public forums, but I could make a research and pm the answers to you, Gaspard, if you are really interested. However, I'd personnaly prefer to invest some more time in the story development Smiley

Generally, that's why I started the http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=170.0 (Political correctness?) thread a while ago - exactly to get everybody's point of view on these subjects, before I started writing something Smiley

That's upsetting actually. 
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Gaspard
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2009, 02:53:49 PM »

Well, I do apologize sincerely if it would be now decided that this background story is .. well.. not suitable, but I just happen to know a lot of people, myself included to tell the truth, who'd be offended by this approach. :/

And to keep the battle off the forums, I would be, yes, interested in your thoughts on the subject at hand.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 02:59:09 PM by Gaspard » Logged
egalor
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2009, 03:32:17 PM »

Nop prob - that's why I asked beforehand whether I should touch sensitive contemporary issues in the plot. If somebody feels offended by that - it's out of question. I will re-write that stuff - that's my job after all.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate your contribution to the ideas dump: http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=180.0
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 03:27:33 AM »

Weather fascist or not, i think it's rather unlikely that a post-apocalyptic ELL, is going to adopt en mass any single ideology or political system.

People will have to radically change their ways of living and doing things after the boom.  It's vanishingly unlikely that a big chunk of now disconnected people wouldl all adopt the same new system.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 03:36:11 AM »

I think there are some good ideas in there Egalor.  I have appreciate Gaspards feelings about his homeland converted into a Nazi stronghold.  That being said - I think it's a reasonable idea to have some "bad guys" (fascists) in Estonia, but I think they could be balanced by other "bad guys" (communists or feudalists), and some good guys as well.  In general, I don't see even a small country the size of Estonia unified only 20 years post fall...  but I think you conflict can play out on a smaller scale.

Furhtermore, it's probably a good idea to distance whatever "government" we put in the game from anti-semitism or other types of ethnic cleansings... it's kinda hard to do tastefully.   On the other hand one would *EXCEPT* whatever organizations to arise from the ashes of WWIII to be extremely autocratic in nature - especially more more well armed and succesful ones.

Some other nit picks:

Quote
Landmass: is entirely covered with ice and snow, possibly, 10m thick.

What do they eat?  I would like at least a cursory defense of the population size you wish to model.  Of course, actual "characters or models" in the game will be 100-1000:1.

Quote
searching for drinkable water (it's impossible to drink water from melted ice or snow),

Uh, why?
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egalor
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« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2009, 03:02:21 PM »

Thanks for the questions!

Quote
Quote
searching for drinkable water (it's impossible to drink water from melted ice or snow),

Uh, why?

Taken from Wikipedia: "Purified water lacks minerals and ions, such as calcium, which are normally found in potable (drinking) water, and which have important biological functions such as in nervous system homeostasis. Some percentage of our daily consumption of these minerals and ions come from our drinking water, but most of them come from the food we eat, making DI water perfectly fine to drink if one has food in his or her system.".

Basically speaking, the water melted from snow lacks a lot of salts and minerals (not to mention, it contains impurities). Therefore, when drunk, it starts eluating useful salts from the body, which causes even further thirst. Even though it's not deadly in smaller quantities (subject to the availability of balanced nutrients), and the polar explorers are even known to drink it for months, it's not recommended for the long use in the harsh conditions of the nuclear Winter. 

Quote
Quote
Landmass: is entirely covered with ice and snow, possibly, 10m thick.

What do they eat?  I would like at least a cursory defense of the population size you wish to model.  Of course, actual "characters or models" in the game will be 100-1000:1.

They eat: fish (along the coast), canned food (rarely found at the ruined cities sites), surviving game, vegetables grown on the hydroponic plants, underground mushrooms, etc. Luckier people manage to breed animals and cultivate plants.

I will revert to the other issues a bit later, and will re-work the wikipedia article then.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2009, 05:03:28 PM »

I will check my military survival manuals, but couldn't they just run it through some dirt, or mix it 1:100 with sea water?
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Dave Matney
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« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2009, 04:54:31 AM »

Weather fascist or not, i think it's rather unlikely that a post-apocalyptic ELL, is going to adopt en mass any single ideology or political system.

People will have to radically change their ways of living and doing things after the boom.  It's vanishingly unlikely that a big chunk of now disconnected people wouldl all adopt the same new system.

I was with you until I got to thinking about it... how did Hitler change the entire mindset of his country?  By speaking up loudly after a crisis, and giving the people someone to blame.  ww3 would be the perfect opportunity for an new regime to form, and if they're fast about it, they could easily amass an army large enough to hold out for 20 years.

And, if they were smart, they'd offer food, medical aid, and shelter to anyone looking, so long as they "convert" to their way of thinking.

So, ELL would have to be an opportunistic lot, probably headed by at least one ultra charismatic leader, but it's not unrealistic.
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egalor
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« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2009, 10:10:59 PM »

Yep, Dave you've just voiced my thoughts. In any case, however, there will have to be a believable story for that. I keep thinking on that.
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2009, 10:33:37 PM »

We talk about 20 years after a nuclear war. That's not the same situation as Germany in the 1920's and early 30's. Facism as well as the authoritarian form of socialism have discredited themselves so why would a larger mass of people support these ideologies in a post 1980's world?
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zenbitz
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« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2009, 04:27:14 AM »

gaspard -

Are you OK with a neo-nazi Estonian "enclave", as long as there was another Estonian faction (that is less offensive) opposing them?
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zenbitz
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« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2009, 04:32:59 AM »

I will check my military survival manuals, but couldn't they just run it through some dirt, or mix it 1:100 with sea water?


Both the US army FM 21-76 survival manual and the SAS Combat handbook mention using melted ice and snow as drinking water.  They make no mention of the ion content, although they do strongly recommend MELTING the ice/snow because it will drop your body temp to eat it frozen.

I don't see how drinking meltwater would be any worse than rainwater, which is a well known drinkable fresh water source.

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maximinus
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« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2009, 07:14:43 AM »

We talk about 20 years after a nuclear war. That's not the same situation as Germany in the 1920's and early 30's. Facism as well as the authoritarian form of socialism have discredited themselves so why would a larger mass of people support these ideologies in a post 1980's world?

My thoughts as well. Especially when simple survival is the big thing, food being more important than -isms. However, I take on board Dave's thought as well.

But I think my main objection to a neo-nazi group is "yawn", as it seems a little formulaic. How about an anarcho-capitalist group (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism) instead - probably more logical in the type of society that there would be.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2009, 01:47:18 PM »

gaspard -

Are you OK with a neo-nazi Estonian "enclave", as long as there was another Estonian faction (that is less offensive) opposing them?

yeah, sure. I mean as long as the whole nation doesn't get labeled as this or that  Cry

but most probably no whole nation ever would go with an ideology - especially in a post-apoc setting; individuals are too different for that. there'd always be an opposition Wink

I recently re-played Fallout 1 and I have to admit that one of my favourite factions in cRPGs is the Brotherhood Of Steel (BOS in Fallout 3 was sadly something else altogether...). I'm not saying BOS is the thing we should go for, but one of the factions as original would be cool. They were selfish enough and noble enough and you could either join them (not really in FO1) or infiltrate them just for the gear (which is top-notch, then leave the place a walking tank) or with more evil intentions ..
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