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Author Topic: Map layout etc...  (Read 31146 times)
Dave Matney
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« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2009, 04:40:18 PM »

Oh, and the reason that those early Black Isle games were such eye candy is that every map was developed as a single tile (I actually seem to remember reading that some of them were even hand painted) first, then they laid their grid system over it and assigned where the player could and couldn't walk.  Then they worried about buildings and trees and stuff.  (Just to ask, is this an option in FIFE?)
You could get such large background images working with FIFE in a number of different ways but there are no plans to go down this route. That would mean abolishing the tile approach and more or less handpainting the whole background. You would need to have experts in the field to make it look good and to me it's simply not worth the effort.

Most important point: tiles are reusable so you're way more flexible this way.

Custom painted maps look cool but are much more work. And a bugger to edit later on. I actually thought of this a few weeks ago pro the cons outweigh the pros by quite a margin, especially for a project like ours.

Good to know.  It's possible in the engine, just not realistic for this project.

I think the main reason I ask is, looking at other FIFE projects, it seems like FIFE is limited to 90 degree angles as far as ground textures go, unless the graphics guys decide to build angle tiles, and then you have to worry about whether the PC can walk on those angles.
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2009, 04:43:04 PM »

FIFE's geometry system is actually pretty flexible. You can have all kind of rotation, tilt and zoom but you're of course responsible for providing suited graphics for these kind of camera settings.
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Dave Matney
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« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2009, 05:08:56 PM »

Cool.  I guess I can only take things at absolute face value, since my super limited knowledge of HTML, Java, and Pascal only allow me to single out what is and isn't comments in a code language I don't know.
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maximinus
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« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2009, 05:25:25 PM »

Pro-tip: Comments often start with "I wish...", "TODO:", "This code shouldn't work....", "WTF?" or "Will fix later".
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2009, 06:44:02 PM »

To get an idea how the system works, you could check out the geometry_twister.py script that can be found in the FIFE trunk (trunk/utils). In case you got Python installed, simply doubleclick on the script to run it.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2009, 04:31:49 PM »

Quote
When you look at Baldur's Gates and Icewind Dales then you can definitely make some awesome eye-candy more easily with separate maps, but then then the possible tactical approaches to infiltrating buildings (sneaking under windows/listening behind closed doors) and combat (shooting through windows or sneakily sniping a tavern patron from a house on the opposite street during the fraction of a moment when someone else opens the door to enter/exit) etc are cut down in number.

This is  of moderate importance to me, but it could perhaps be tabled for a later date.

Quote
But when the 'outside' map is flexible and interesting enough and actually offers various types of cover and obstacles for tactics then a separate map for buildings wouldn't be too bad, or what ?

My concern is that people will use map edges to "reset" combat by running into buildings.


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Gaspard
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« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »

You mean shoot-and-run / hit-and-flee ?

Couldn't this be coded into the game in such a fashion that when you are in combat and you leave an area for less than a certain amount of time (or another requisite) then when you return you will actually be at a disadvantage (it is automatically the enemy's turn, etc ...) so that you wouldn't run off a map every time you feel you might need a tourniquet. You would need a good reason or a good tactic that would outweigh a serious drawback.
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maximinus
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« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2009, 06:14:00 PM »

You mean shoot-and-run / hit-and-flee ?

Couldn't this be coded into the game in such a fashion that when you are in combat and you leave an area for less than a certain amount of time (or another requisite) then when you return you will actually be at a disadvantage (it is automatically the enemy's turn, etc ...) so that you wouldn't run off a map every time you feel you might need a tourniquet. You would need a good reason or a good tactic that would outweigh a serious drawback.

Fully agreed, shoot and run tactics we should be able to punish via the code.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2009, 05:01:34 PM »

Quote
But when the 'outside' map is flexible and interesting enough and actually offers various types of cover and obstacles for tactics then a separate map for buildings wouldn't be too bad, or what ?

My concern is that people will use map edges to "reset" combat by running into buildings.

A legitimate concern.  If go with the third option previously suggested:
Quote from:  eleazzaar
Besides the two scenarios discussed, it should also be possible to load an outdoors area and all the interiors of buildings in that area in one chunk, so that while the interiors are presented to the player as separate "maps", there is no loading necessary while moving inside and outside.

I.E. interior maps should be generally considered submaps of a larger (generally) outdoors map.  Even though the player is just being shown one map or submap at a time, combatants could still be active, and follow the PC through a door, as long as it it part of the same map/submap complex.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2009, 05:53:20 PM »

Quote
But when the 'outside' map is flexible and interesting enough and actually offers various types of cover and obstacles for tactics then a separate map for buildings wouldn't be too bad, or what ?

My concern is that people will use map edges to "reset" combat by running into buildings.

A legitimate concern.  If go with the third option previously suggested:
Quote from:  eleazzaar
Besides the two scenarios discussed, it should also be possible to load an outdoors area and all the interiors of buildings in that area in one chunk, so that while the interiors are presented to the player as separate "maps", there is no loading necessary while moving inside and outside.

I.E. interior maps should be generally considered submaps of a larger (generally) outdoors map.  Even though the player is just being shown one map or submap at a time, combatants could still be active, and follow the PC through a door, as long as it it part of the same map/submap complex.

word
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maximinus
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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2009, 06:09:14 PM »

The way the code is going this sort of stuff is possible since the map on the screen is only a view onto the world data. That doesn't mean it's easy, just that it's possible, so rest a little easy for now  Tongue
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2009, 03:31:01 PM »

I would like to put the map layout topic back on the agenda.

Do we plan to stick to the indoor areas as separate maps approach or would we rather like to switch to the Fallout approach and move at least the ground floor of buildings to the outdoor maps?
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b0rland
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2009, 06:53:58 PM »

As I understand from above discussion, Fallout approach with merged indoor/outdoor maps is generally considered somewhat better. Reasons: avoiding maps reload; ability to shoot through the door/window. However nobody really has a good idea of how this can be implemented based on FIFE. Maps "patch" sounds easiest, but there may be unexpected pitfalls.

Based on just the above, I would suggest implementing houses as a separate map FOR NOW and reconsider it after several minor iterations. I.e. not include it into Milestone 1 or even Tech Demo 1 and concentrate on making the "game" otherwise playable. It doesn't seem like we'll have to scrap too much of the code if we decide to upgrade to Fallout approach later on.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 06:56:38 PM by b0rland » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2009, 08:46:17 PM »

without looking at the FIFE code...  It would seem to me that what you need is for every "building with a roof" an extra layer to draw (which is the roof).  By default, the roof is drawn.   It's only "windowed" (not drawn) when a PC/Player camera is "in" the room.

So, as long as FIFE has the understanding of drawing two "objects" on top of each other, it seems relatively straight forward.  If, on the other hand it does not have such "layering"... it's going to be much harder.
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2009, 11:48:08 AM »

FIFE supports layers just fine Zenbitz, so there is nothing FIFE-related that stops us from following a Fallout-like map layout approach.

Btw.: did you manage to get FIFE / PARPG running on your Mac Zenbitz? One of the new programmers worked it out and it looked like, while it surely takes some time, it's not that complicated as thought. Might be worth giving it a try again at this point, considering we got a Mac guy on the team now.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 12:06:11 PM by mvBarracuda » Logged
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