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Author Topic: CROUCHING  (Read 5458 times)
zenbitz
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« on: March 25, 2009, 12:22:54 AM »

http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:IRC_chatlog_on_crouching

The bottom line is that "crouching" is not needed as a distinct action.  It is already covered.  There is no situation where you where your choice to crouch or not crouch (specifically) is not automatic.  For example, if you want to move fast with improved defense you crouch.  If you need to go faster, you aren't crouched.   You don't stand in one place and crouch - you either hit the ground/cover, kneel, or stand there in stance.
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domik
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« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2009, 08:41:16 AM »

http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:IRC_chatlog_on_crouching

The bottom line is that "crouching" is not needed as a distinct action.  It is already covered.  There is no situation where you where your choice to crouch or not crouch (specifically) is not automatic.  For example, if you want to move fast with improved defense you crouch.  If you need to go faster, you aren't crouched.   You don't stand in one place and crouch - you either hit the ground/cover, kneel, or stand there in stance.

I didn't understand this this way. Sorry.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 04:03:55 PM »

For example, if you want to move fast with improved defense you crouch.

Improved defense against what?

Crouching helps when there are ranged weapons about, but against melee weapons, you are just making it harder to dodge, and thus easier to be hit.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 09:06:31 PM »

Allow me to rehash this.  Again.

One principal that I am going to invoke is that the player should not generally be allowed to make his PC do utterly moronic things for no reason.   For example - if PC is being attacked by a very sharp weapon, he should not be allowed to grab the blade when it would just cut his hand.   This is a simplification of reality.

As El points out above.  Crouching is irrelevant for melee combat.  It would likely be worse to be "crouching" in this case, or in anyway standing statically (you would be moving).  But the PC knows this, and hence will not crouch in any melee situation.  In fact, if he was "caught out" crouching (for whatever reason he was doing do), he will abort out of the crouch when attacked in hand to hand combat.  The excepting might be wrestling or some kind of knife duel - fencing maybe.  If there are exceptions for melee combat they will be applied automatically by the expert PC implemented the physical mechanical details of his melee skill.  In short - he will never be faced with a reasonable decision "crouch or don't crouch".

Moving on to missile combat.
What decisions does the Player/PC have to make?   Well, there are a couple of trade offs.   He can trade mobility (harder to hit, can go somewhere) for stability (better firing platform == bonus to hit).  He can trade "static defense" - hiding behind cover, making himself smaller - for more flexibility (easier to move later - or do other actions, but easier to be hit).   He can trade rate of fire for accuracy (for any weapon that has a small reload time, 0-1 actions)

SIMPLIFYING ASSUMPTION:  The stance of a (skilled) missile weapon user (prone, one-kneeing, crouched, standing) does not make an appreciable difference in his chance to hit his target while aiming.  If it does, "crouching" is clearly the worst.  Aiming here implies that the firer is moving as little as possible - braced if you will.  You can brace in all these positions, with the possible exception of crouching.   

To start - lets take the case where the PC is not shooting back, just trying to avoid being shot.  What are his options?
a. Run away as fast as possible.
b. Run away "defensively" (dodge/run) - by definition a slower speed than (a)
c.  Hide behind something
d. Make himself as small as possible while not moving

From the top - in (a)., he will not be crouching because it slows him down.  In (b). he will ALWAYS be crouching, in (c) he will crouch as needed to maximize his cover.   In (d) he will either go prone, or crouch.  But the choice is to "go prone" or not (there is a penalty to being prone - it's now harder to get up).   There is no realistic option to "stand there like a dumbass and get shot".  If he's trying to do a third thing (other than shot / not be shot) such as fixing a bicycle to escape on - then he, again, doesn't get the choice to crouch.

In short - in the above examples, the player never has to - nor never should - have the option to CHOOSE to crouch independently of his other actions.   Now, once could argue that there is an "a.5" state where he is "dodge running while not crouching" which makes him slightly faster and slightly easier to hit.  I don't think this option is worth putting in the game.

In the IRC chat I mentioned walking or crawling - but you obviously cannot crawl and crouch at the same time, and walking (with or without crouching) has no advantage over (b) above - except in the rare case that footing is terrible, in which case walking is just (b) but slower.

OK, now lets let intrepid snowblind wanderer shoot back.
(a) is not relevent
(b) to (b) above we add "shoot wildly and hope the bad guys duck" (yes, this will be an option)
(c) is to shoot from cover.  This might cause a slightly smaller "crouch" or "duck" than when you are just flat out hiding, but there's still no decision.  You will always give yourself the maximum cover possible while trying to get off a shot.
(d) is exactly equivalent - the player is either going to shoot from a prone, 1 knee, or standing position.  All are about equal in stability (chance to hit), but have more or less "lag" time to change position, move on next action.

So the summary of the summary:  The artists can animate crouching.  The player does not add "crouch" as a command option to any (useful, reasonable) action that I can think of.  It's always the default when necessary and never done when not necessary.
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Kukkakaali
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2009, 06:18:54 AM »

Crouching improves your chance to hit because you get more stable when shooting and you can be less woried about getting shot,
and i think that it gives an great tactical base for the game, on fighting with firearms and such so i think that it should be a must have in every game that has guns.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2009, 05:03:38 PM »

Crouching improves your chance to hit because you get more stable when shooting and you can be less woried about getting shot,
and i think that it gives an great tactical base for the game, on fighting with firearms and such so i think that it should be a must have in every game that has guns.

This is debatable - others argue that it improves your defense against missle weapons.  It does both?  Why would you ever stand up straight?  Otherwise, I think this is covered by my "kneeling" example.

But describe a situation where a player has an interesting tactical option of "crouching" vs. "not"
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maximinus
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« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2009, 02:43:01 PM »

But describe a situation where a player has an interesting tactical option of "crouching" vs. "not"

Never been to a Chinese public toilet, eh?  Grin
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