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Author Topic: Equipment and Stuff  (Read 15040 times)
Kukkakaali
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 01:35:34 PM »

 I think that items should have durabilities and such, as an aspect of realism ect.
But you will have to remember that the player character would propably clean up and repair the items
on he /shes resting time and such.
Example;
You have an dirty shotgun with you and you are crossing the baltic sea when you notice
an hut that appears to be an good place to stay for the night.. you crawl in the hut, light an fire and
cook something for yourself, then you will propably start healing those wounds that the bad shoes gave you
and then clean your items, clothes, shoes, weapons and put everything in a good order to meet tommorrows adventures.

So what i mean is that durability and repairing is pointless in the way that it should be automaticly done like
eating, sleeping, drinking and taking a shit.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 12:41:19 PM »

Quote
Luxuries

These are things that ~EVERYONE wants, but generally serve no useful purpose. Drugs that give no (or very little) game benefit to the user (cigarettes, alcohol, others) could be considered luxuries, as would most pre-war entertainment devices (books, magazines, photos, etc.). "Precious metals and stones" will probably still have some value for status among any "upper class" citizens of the apocalypse - as might possible ANY rare pre-war item.

an ornate snow-globe !
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Gaspard
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« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 12:47:07 PM »

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Other protective gear

This is special clothes to protect against some chemical, radiation, or biological threat. They are often cumbersome and hot (not a big issue here). If pierced by anything sharp - they may lose some or all of their protection (depending on specific threat, etc.)

protective gear of that kind mught have a damage threshold - cross that and the item loses its protective properties. It's agem and if the gear is rare and a crazy nut with a bow of a big rat with sharp teeth bites you while you are handling something deadly then you're done for just like that : ((

Oh and a question, wouldn't the warm clothing be a subtype of clothing ? It's not protective if you consider chemical or radioactive hazards but it's pretty essential in a cold cold night under your armor. Long underwear, a cardigan etc.. different materials
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sgrevan
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 12:35:09 PM »

I'm a bit late, but imho durability doesn't intend to be fun. As already mentioned, it gives realism. I've always found that encumbrance was really, really boring, especially when you're carrying valuable stuff, but I also understood that it was unrealistic to carry 3 miniguns, 10 leather armors, and 20 beer packs.

Basically, you can sort out gameplay elements in two categories :
1. The ones which gives fun to the player.
2. The ones which gives realism to the game.

For example, exploring a rusty base (1) and discovering strange stuff (1) are compensating the boring part of inventory management (2). Of course, you can find a way to make an enjoyable, or at least convenient, inventory system, but that's just an example. I think Kukkakaali's vision is quite good.

I think you should have at least 2/3 of 1 and 1/3 of 2.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 12:40:46 PM by sgrevan » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2009, 12:34:22 AM »

I'm a bit late, but imho durability doesn't intend to be fun. As already mentioned, it gives realism.

I agree. The annoying thing about durability is stuff degrading as it's used.  No one wants that.  I was thinking of a 'half-measure' where stuff you found might be initially in disrepair, but you could "fix" it.  I am on the fence on whether or not stuff breaks on some kind of critical failure or blatant misuse.

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DK
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2009, 02:43:53 AM »

stuff should break but not randomly and not from overuse (at least generally), though events/actions should have some effect. for example getting a gun wet or perhaps using your knife for extreme cutting work

*hmmms some*

but perhaps we could have a passive cheap basic repair skill that says stuff won't degrade. would imply the knowledge of basic maintenance and would be applied pasively so you don't have to continue using every now and again.
of course with the basic skill couldn't do major repair works so couldn't improve the condition of anything, but could stop it from getting worse.

--

edit:

revised repair system.

Basic (maintainer) skill: maintains item at current state.

Learned (repair) skill: allows repair to a normal 100% value of the item

Expert (engineer) skill: allows upgardes to beyond normal capacity of an item


now question... complicate the system further?

have repair skill relevant to individual items, to item classes, or just general?

I would favour a tree

To learn general repair to any level you require n number of less general repair skills, such as rifle repair, pistol repair, computer repair etc... and to learn rifle repair to any level you would require n number of specialised repair skills, such as ak47 repair, m1 garand repair, m40 repair etc...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 03:02:37 AM by DK » Logged
icelus
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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2009, 03:25:22 AM »

This seemed like the thread for feedback on:

http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Catalog_of_item_types

- What could be stowed and equipped simultaneously? This is a complication that I don't see the point of.

- What dynamic are you looking from hiding? Are you thinking the player will need a perception check to see them, or will the item be hidden from npcs?

- Better to consider all useful things as linked to skills I think, but only some skills as surfaced (e.g. communication at a distance is a "skill", but perhaps not one you get in a skill tree).

- Preventing bows from being held at ready indefinitely is an interesting one. Maybe some maximum limit on the number of action points a character may spend (equiv. turns at lower resolution) out of some total with the bow at ready. e.g. may hold the bow at ready for maximum 12 of every 24 turns (arms too tired otherwise).

- Your calorie quotas are very low compared to government guidelines that specify a healthy minimum as 2000 for a normal woman, 2500 for a normal man, 3000 for a man with an active lifestyle, and even more for people in cold weather conditions. A 1500 calorie diet for an active man in cold conditions might be survivable, but its probably not a good idea long term.

- No vitamins? This kind of dynamic could actually be quite interesting I think (maybe not worth tracking anything but vitamin C, but lack of vitamin C has been a real survival dynamic in the past - e.g. navies of the 18th and 19th centuries).

- Organ transplants could certainly be done in quests, there's just no need for them in mechanics (besides which you need a lot of painkillers and tech to do even basic surgery!)

- We can probably fake liquid containers holding dry goods (i.e. have some kind of setup where they're both containers and liquid containers and rationalise between them). I'd rather not deal with this but if your heart is set on it it can be done.

Otherwise, looks good I think.
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Rippig
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 07:42:17 AM »

I'm not really sure if I should post this here, since it is specifically mentioned in the mechanics section, or if I should post this in the writing section, but it'll probably get read by the necessary people anyway.

I noticed in the http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Catalog_of_item_types that under "Information and Learning Aids" you point out that there was no internet in 1988 (Though I think the timeline might be changing to 1983?).  Anyway, this is not entirely true.

ARPANet was developed in late 1960s and connected many American military/academic institutions and the first European server that connected to the ARPANet was in Norway in 1973.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet#CERN.2C_the_European_Internet.2C_the_link_to_the_Pacific_and_beyond

Quote
The first ARPANET connection outside the US was established to NORSAR in Norway in 1973, just ahead of the connection to Great Britain. These links were all converted to TCP/IP in 1982, at the same time as the rest of the ARPANET.

CERN, the European Internet, the link to the Pacific and beyond

Between 1984 and 1988 CERN began installation and operation of TCP/IP to interconnect its major internal computer systems, workstations, PCs and an accelerator control system. CERN continued to operate a limited self-developed system CERNET internally and several incompatible (typically proprietary) network protocols externally. There was considerable resistance in Europe towards more widespread use of TCP/IP and the CERN TCP/IP intranets remained isolated from the Internet until 1989.

At the very least there was a European network that could be accessed, at least militarily and might be a decent story point during any of the numerous episodes that are developed for PARPG.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2009, 08:27:51 PM »

ARPANet was developed in late 1960s and connected many American military/academic institutions and the first European server that connected to the ARPANet was in Norway in 1973.

Don't get pedantic on me, son!  You'll regret it! Smiley
Anyway - that's not what I meant.  I meant "google and wikipedia" == internet.

Quote
At the very least there was a European network that could be accessed, at least militarily and might be a decent story point during any of the numerous episodes that are developed for PARPG.

Yeah, sure ... all you need is a power supply to distributed machines, and admins to reboot the machines...
 Roll Eyes
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zenbitz
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 08:42:52 PM »

This seemed like the thread for feedback on:

http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Catalog_of_item_types

- What could be stowed and equipped simultaneously? This is a complication that I don't see the point of.

Oh, the example I was thinking of was a geiger counter, or other passive sensor type dealio.

Quote
- What dynamic are you looking from hiding? Are you thinking the player will need a perception check to see them, or will the item be hidden from npcs?

Very simply - Player should be able to create "caches" of items that NPCs cannot find (like bury them).   Now, we could make this trivial by just letting him drop stuff willy-nilly.... but I think it would be cool to have generalize "spoilage" where stuff you leave around gets picked up by the other denizens of the snowy wasteland, unless you hide it.  Perhaps not worth the trouble, however.

Quote
- Better to consider all useful things as linked to skills I think, but only some skills as surfaced (e.g. communication at a distance is a "skill", but perhaps not one you get in a skill tree).

REALLY what I need to do is stop overloading the "skill" operator.

Quote
- Preventing bows from being held at ready indefinitely is an interesting one. Maybe some maximum limit on the number of action points a character may spend (equiv. turns at lower resolution) out of some total with the bow at ready. e.g. may hold the bow at ready for maximum 12 of every 24 turns (arms too tired otherwise).
-

Well, there are simple and complex ways to model this.  We could consider the pound pull of the bow, and the strength of the user, fatigue level (which probabably just reduces "effective" strength) etc.

But most simply - we should consider "holding" a shot to be an aim action and just cap all aim actions (you cannot perform more than some number - say 5 - aim actions in a row).  Your arm, eye, whatever gets tired.

Quote
Your calorie quotas are very low compared to government guidelines that specify a healthy minimum as 2000 for a normal woman, 2500 for a normal man, 3000 for a man with an active lifestyle, and even more for people in cold weather conditions. A 1500 calorie diet for an active man in cold conditions might be survivable, but its probably not a good idea long term.

Boy that's a nit pick.  I was picking a minimum number, not recommended or average modern (which is about 3,000 for _americans_ so that has to be a high number).   Also, some numbers I've found include "wastage" (i.,e how much food gets bought or plated as opposed to actually swallowed).

I could go with 2000, with 1000 being "half rations" if you insist.

Quote
- No vitamins? This kind of dynamic could actually be quite interesting I think (maybe not worth tracking anything but vitamin C, but lack of vitamin C has been a real survival dynamic in the past - e.g. navies of the 18th and 19th centuries).

This is probalbly not worth the trouble.    Just consider the 2000 cals above to be "meta calories" including all necessary nutrients.

Quote
- We can probably fake liquid containers holding dry goods (i.e. have some kind of setup where they're both containers and liquid containers and rationalise between them). I'd rather not deal with this but if your heart is set on it it can be done.

It's almost certainly not necessary.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2009, 09:33:55 PM »

Boy that's a nit pick.  I was picking a minimum number, not recommended or average modern (which is about 3,000 for _americans_ so that has to be a high number).

Why in the world would we have to measure calories?

Simply display food with units called "rations", (for a days worth of food) or "meals" (3 meals a day).  Since food should be consumed automatically, there's no need to subdivide food further, or display numerical information the player doesn't care about.

"3 meals of venison" is what the player wants to know.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 09:35:33 PM by eleazzaar » Logged
Gaspard
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2009, 09:46:23 PM »

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Very simply - Player should be able to create "caches" of items that NPCs cannot find (like bury them).   Now, we could make this trivial by just letting him drop stuff willy-nilly.... but I think it would be cool to have generalize "spoilage" where stuff you leave around gets picked up by the other denizens of the snowy wasteland, unless you hide it.  Perhaps not worth the trouble, however.

OR the items could just decay/disappear after a period of time like in some/many games.
Perhaps when you're off the map. Then you'd have to wonder for yourself whether it was a hungry kid who took the Snickers bar you dropped or a passing penguin with an eye for chocolate.

In Arcanum the NPCs picked stuff up. So did your allies. It was annoying most of the time. After a heavy battle (the dead enemies did not end up as containers - the items were just dropped on the ground) or breaking a container and being busy with arranging your inventory the NPC would walk up to the pile of things and one-by-one pick them up. Then they'd equip the optimum (sometimes if they don't have an item of that type they might equip it - a cursed unidentified item even and that's a nuisance (obviously not a problem in PARPG though..))

---

So here's also another question:

how is the inventory of a dead NPC treated ? Will the items drop on the ground or will the body 'turn into' a container ?
(my vote's with container btw)
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2009, 09:53:35 PM »

how is the inventory of a dead NPC treated ? Will the items drop on the ground or will the body 'turn into' a container ?
(my vote's with container btw)
After having looted probably thousands of corpses in various RPGs the thrill has waned.  It's just a chore.

I'd suggest if you've won a combat that an inventory panel comes up with all the stuff you might loot from the bodies of your fallen foes.  You can grab whatever you want without having to click on each one and try to remember who you have already looted.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2009, 10:10:15 PM »

sort of like the barter screen you showed ?

i mean yeah that's also an option, a pretty covenient one even ;P
my vote for the corpse-containers was because of the fact that it's even more tedious walking around and sorting things one-by-one
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zenbitz
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« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2009, 11:52:49 PM »

Why in the world would we have to measure calories?

It's for level designers and writers.   How many rations = 1 apple?  Info on calories is readily available on the internet.  We just need to assign 1 ration = X calories and blammo, done.

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