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Author Topic: Combat System and Mechanics  (Read 31443 times)
eleazzaar
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« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2009, 05:08:51 AM »

Last question - interception in combat.

In JA there was this interception mode. When PC had AP and new enemy showed there was interception mode. So PC could make action shoot/run/hide. If enemy was hit it was intercepting his running state.

Same thing was with all party members. This thing I would like to have the most.

I'm not sure what you mean, exactly.

It sounds sorta like X-com.

If you saved enough action points to fire a gun, you could (possibly) fire as soon as an enemy came into sight.  This was important because of the "hide and seek" element of X-Com.  You often spent more time looking for the enemy than actually fighting them.

I doubt there will be very much of the searching for hidden enemies while in combat mode in parpg, however.  I'm not so sure reserving action points would be very interesting in our case.

However, there are interesting things you can do by saving action points.  Perhaps, for instance, your dodge/parry goes up the more action points you have saved.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2009, 09:01:53 PM »

For the record... I am leaning against action points in general.  I find them to be fiddly and have low simulation value in a world populated primarly by "normal" humans and animals.

If someone wants to make a spirited defense of them - please go ahead.

The default alternative is to give all characters one action per round/phase.... with the inclusion of some "mixed actions" (step and attack, etc.).  Characters may get multiple actions per "turn" (composed of multiple rounds/phases).

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domik
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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2009, 12:23:07 AM »

Well I just don't liked in most games that you could get out of the corner shoot and hide in one turn. Enemy needed to actually run to you.

So in this way you get out of the corner, enemy would spot you (now it his turn) he shoot to you. He end's his points and you can do now whatever you like.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2009, 12:27:40 AM »

Well I just don't liked in most games that you could get out of the corner shoot and hide in one turn. Enemy needed to actually run to you.

This is because basic "action point" systems are too flexible, and give players too many action points.  Move-shoot-Move is TOO MUCH flexibility.

I prefer something like
"Choose one of"
Move
Shoot
Move-Shoot
Shoot-Move
Shoot (poorly) while moving
...

EDIT that wasn't meant to be a complete list.  For a more complete list see: http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Combat_System_Thoughts  Which you all should have read (twice) before posting here. 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 05:26:12 AM by zenbitz » Logged

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domik
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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2009, 12:35:03 AM »

I just don't see it. You would need to add
reload,
reload move,
reload shoot
shoot with aim

(I don't remember if there was something about using healing or other skills while combat).

I would stay with flexible way but with restrictions or "surprises". I haven't played with any game that would have something like this maybe thats why I don't see it.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2009, 05:24:34 AM »

I just don't see it. You would need to add
reload,
reload move,
reload shoot
shoot with aim

OF COURSE.  I guess I left off the ...  It's all on the wiki page.

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domik
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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2009, 09:21:53 AM »

Zenbitz could you link all your thoughts to your main user page? I would be much simpler to just pick any topic and read it. Maybe I just cant use wiki but I got to use find option always when I want to read on of topics.


I read this: http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Combat_System_Thoughts

Your proposal is complex but complicated also. I didn't say I don't like it.

Some things just don't match to me.

Reloading pistol will be 1 action and reloading crossbow would be 1 action to? Time consumption is different in each other. I guess not according to this one

Quote
reload [different weapons have N reload actions, depending on acessibilty, stuff] [auto take cover if available]

So every weapon would need to have time specified for different operations.

As I was reading little about it. I'm not expert in this topic but - 1 crossbow shot = multiple short bow shots. So would it be 2 round with short bow = 2 shots and 1 shoot with crossbow? What PC would do at the time? Just stand and "aim"?

Also what about crawl and crouch. You can shot rifle, pistol, crossbow from crawl position but how much action would that be?

How much hexes would you move while :normal move, running, crouching and crawling ?

What about lock picking,  looting corpses etc? If you hit enemy with crowbar you just need to have possibility to pick up his pistol or super crowbar Wink

I don't know how skilled would be our graphics/programmers but I can see that like an circle under right click. When you enter to some category the sub category items show up instead. On the center of the circle could be back function. I this way player wouldn't need to move mouse on all those popups.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2009, 04:18:25 PM »

For the record... I am leaning against action points in general.  I find them to be fiddly and have low simulation value in a world populated primarly by "normal" humans and animals....

    Move/ Shoot
    Shoot/ Move
    Shoot (poorly) while moving
    reload/ move,
    reload/ shoot
    shoot/ with aim

I dunno.  I'm not married to action points per se, and obviously they can be implemented in a way that's silly, if you allow too many per turn.  But with these "combo actions", it seems rather like a system with 2 action points  where every action takes 1 point.  The only real simultaneous action is the "Shoot (poorly) while moving", which seems awkward to do in a turn based game anyway.  Everything else, as i understand it, could be done, and done more gracefully with a small number of action points.



The fundamental gameplay reason to have something like action points is that it is tedious to control a squad if you can only do a tiny bit to a character and then must move on to the next to give them a very small order, etc.  In other words, it's frustrating if i generally have to remember what i was doing for several cycles of control, before i actually get to the goal.

So what i'm saying, is that the actions you do in combat should either:

1) If you only get one move per control cycle, actions should be relatively complete, i.e. represent what you could accomplish in more than a second.  I.E. "Aim-fire" could be an action along with "fire wildly thrice".

2) If actions are subdivided into rather small parts, i.e. "aim", "stand" and "fire" are separate actions, then each character should be allowed to do more than one per control cycle.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2009, 09:43:41 PM »

Zenbitz could you link all your thoughts to your main user page? I would be much simpler to just pick any topic and read it. Maybe I just cant use wiki but I got to use find option always when I want to read on of topics.

They are all linked on http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Mechanics - others can add stuff to this page, too but it's better if this page is like a link dump.

Quote
Reloading pistol will be 1 action and reloading crossbow would be 1 action to? Time consumption is different in each other. I guess not according to this one

Quote
reload [different weapons have N reload actions, depending on acessibilty, stuff] [auto take cover if available]

So every weapon would need to have time specified for different operations.

As I was reading little about it. I'm not expert in this topic but - 1 crossbow shot = multiple short bow shots. So would it be 2 round with short bow = 2 shots and 1 shoot with crossbow? What PC would do at the time? Just stand and "aim"?

OK, it's probably not written very clearly - it's just a draft.  Nor is it complete, as you have pointed out.  When it's complete, it will be a Proposal:.   Crossbows take multiple actions to reload.  It's important that it be multiple actions, not just " a bunch of action points" because everyone should be able to interrupt you while not taking a special 'overwatch action'  You are just standing there with your foot in the hook, or turning a crank.  Sitting duck. 

The difference between crossbows and short bows, is the following:
(I will say I briefly lobbied to dump short/long bows but was argued down)
1) Crossbow can be held loaded and aimed with no effort
2) Same number of actions (1ish) to draw a 'ready' arrow and knock it
3) bow can be drawn in 1 action (more if the lb. pull is > than your ST rating), crossbows take 3+ depending on strength (of user and bow) and machine to help you

Quote
Also what about crawl and crouch. You can shot rifle, pistol, crossbow from crawl position but how much action would that be?

I did forget crawl! (move while prone - I would guess you can move 1m/action while prone or kneeling) Crouch is silly and has been discussed elsewhere (IRC, comments on wiki).  Kneel is OK.    It's the same actions to shoot while prone or kneeling or standing.  1.  1 action might = ~3 bullets for an autoloading gun or 3 bursts from a full auto gun.

Quote
How much hexes would you move while :normal move, running, crouching and crawling ?

I didn't write this down yet..  I consider "crouching and running" to be "dodge/running".
Assume each action phase is ~1s.  So, if you can run 3m/s then you move 3 squares.  Dodge/running is slower.  Crawling/rolling should be 1m/s.

Quote
What about lock picking,  looting corpses etc? If you hit enemy with crowbar you just need to have possibility to pick up his pistol or super crowbar Wink

Well, just figure out how many seconds it would take you to do it.  That's the number of actions you need.  Roughly.

Quote
I don't know how skilled would be our graphics/programmers but I can see that like an circle under right click. When you enter to some category the sub category items show up instead. On the center of the circle could be back function. I this way player wouldn't need to move mouse on all those popups.

Yeah, that's not settled at all.
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domik
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« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2009, 11:39:56 PM »

Quote from: zenbitz
They are all linked on http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Mechanics - others can add stuff to this page, too but it's better if this page is like a link dump.
Good point haven't thought about it Wink

Quote
The difference between crossbows and short bows, is the following:
(I will say I briefly lobbied to dump short/long bows but was argued down)
1) Crossbow can be held loaded and aimed with no effort
2) Same number of actions (1ish) to draw a 'ready' arrow and knock it
3) bow can be drawn in 1 action (more if the lb. pull is > than your ST rating), crossbows take 3+ depending on strength (of user and bow) and machine to help you
That explains everything.

Quote
Crouch is silly and has been discussed elsewhere (IRC, comments on wiki).  Kneel is OK. 

I didn't had chance to argue with that Wink

Just look at this picture.
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGC/StaticFiles/Images/Show/26xx/264x/2647_SWAT-1_04700300.jpg
And few next
http://www.clackamas.us/sheriff/images/swat03.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Members_of_the_60th_Security_Police_Squadron%27s_Base_Swat_Team.jpg

In buildings most people is moving like on first picture. For me its crouching. Also in practice there are different ways of crouching: sneaking (slow move), walking, quick walking and sprint all this we do in crouch position. I have practice in airsoft combat, so pleas don't tell me its silly. I you would have bullets flaying above your head you wouldn't tell that.

I had once this kind of situation.

Enemies (~10 people) >>>>>>> me (picket)  <<<<<<< friendlies (~10 people)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picket_(military)

I was laying on my back didn't see anything, only beautiful blue sky and trees. Only thing that disturbed this was bullets flying above my head. I actually heard them flying. At the end I was hit in my foot because it was few cm above my body. Just try to imagine that. Same thing is with moving while crouching. When people are getting out of helicopter they are also crouching.

It was done very well in JA.

Quote
What about lock picking,  looting corpses etc? If you hit enemy with crowbar you just need to have possibility to pick up his pistol or super crowbar Wink

Well, just figure out how many seconds it would take you to do it.  That's the number of actions you need.  Roughly.

So I assume that we don't abandon that kind of actions.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2009, 08:26:26 PM »

Crouching discussion split off : http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=144.0
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zenbitz
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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2009, 08:28:28 PM »

Quote
The fundamental gameplay reason to have something like action points is that it is tedious to control a squad ...

In my opinion, it's tedious to control a squad ANYWAY, which is why I want the AI to do it, with some "suggestions" from the player.   But that's another thread, too.

Besides - that's NOT the "fundamental" reason, because Fallout has action points and you don't control a squad.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2009, 08:51:02 PM »

Quote
The fundamental gameplay reason to have something like action points is that it is tedious to control a squad ...

Besides - that's NOT the "fundamental" reason, because Fallout has action points and you don't control a squad.

I don't mean to imply that action points have no other possible rational.

But action points prevent a similar (if less severe) problem when a single unit is controlled instead of a squad.
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