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Author Topic: Combat System and Mechanics  (Read 27847 times)
Lamoot
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2009, 10:30:33 AM »

Hmmm hmmm, can't make up my mind. Having separate bullets and clips as containers is more hard-core, but I suspect it can get rather tedious, so some simplified method could be better then?
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Gaspard
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2009, 11:34:21 AM »

if crafting your own bullets is possible, then filling up the clips separately would be cool.
then again the inventory might do that automatically. that would need some thinking out so wrong bullets would not get packet into a clip automatically, that would suck ba.. just suck pretty much. Or you could drag the bullets onto the clip to fill it. Or there might be a separate icon in a menu like in Fallout you could unload the weapons now you'd have an option to fit said bullets into a clip.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2009, 04:57:03 PM »

...Or you could drag the bullets onto the clip to fill it...

And we could subdivide a unit of rations into "bites" and you could drag each bite onto the character for him to eat it.

I'm being a little sarcastic, Wink but these two examples seem about equally fun and game-worthy to me.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2009, 05:40:37 PM »

...Or you could drag the bullets onto the clip to fill it...

And we could subdivide a unit of rations into "bites" and you could drag each bite onto the character for him to eat it.

I'm being a little sarcastic, Wink but these two examples seem about equally fun and game-worthy to me.

I'm talking only about the situation when you craft the ammunition yourself. I mean if everything is so automated then you'd have all the components for the ammo in your inventory and press the 'create button !! tm!' and you'd have full and ready clips waiting for you. why not have them magically slip into your weapon too ?  Wink

I pictured was a hypothetical situation in which we have crafting your own ammo and/or weapons in the final game.
I was pretty happy how Fallout dealed with it and I thought it strange how Arcanum dealed with it. You should be able to hit reload and the PC would do it not the player itself every time by hand.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2009, 11:52:11 PM »

This is what I am thinking.  I agree that "FO" like ammo is probably a reasonable fall back if we get too silly.

1)  Every 'clip' gun that a character owns has 2 clips (the one in the gun and a spare).
2) Outside of combat, loose ammo 'auto fills' first the in-gun clip, then the spare, all other ammo is "loose"
3) In combat, a reload action puts a new clip in a gun (when first is empty) - this is a reasonably fast action (if the spare clip is in a 'ready' inventory slot - see inventory thread)
4) You can find extra clips (beyond your original 2) for guns - but they are weapon specific, you cannot use a AK47 clip in an FN-FAL.
5) In combat, you can put loose ammo into a clip (empty or partially) but EACH bullet reload is an action equivalent to putting a clip in.   I would suggest to be behind something when you do this.

Many guns have no clips.  Pump action shotguns (and many rifles) have a "tub mag" that is integral to the gun.  6-8 rounds.  When they are done, you have to put in rounds 1-by-1.  Most revolvers are similar, although there exist "speed loaders" which act like clips that don't stay in the gun.  Lots of guns are single shot!  You have to actually find a bullet and rechamber them individually.  All these reload actions are like 5) and 2) above (slow in combat, auto outside).

I think we can draw the line at not having "danger" penalties for leaving a round chambered in a gun while you are farting around.
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domik
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« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2009, 11:17:48 PM »

I have something to add about clips. Most commonly there are 2x pistol mag and 8 rifle clips. Up to 3 granades.

These are avaliable instantly. More would be avaliable in backpack. (I added photos, you could also try looking at US ALICE)

Next thing. I you would wear only jacket how would like to store those clips ? When I was starting to play airsoft 3 mags would be max without any zipped pocket. I just dropped them while running.

Next thing magazines. Bullets are cheaper than magzines that's sure. You can't just buy one after another. We use ammo pouches for empty clips.

Filling clip could be done automatically but of curse it takes time.

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1)  Every 'clip' gun that a character owns has 2 clips (the one in the gun and a spare).

I don't understand it. You mean max 2 clips or he just bought pistol and have extra clip with it? Normally you have only one (in gun).


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zenbitz
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2009, 06:17:24 AM »

I have something to add about clips. Most commonly there are 2x pistol mag and 8 rifle clips. Up to 3 granades.

most commonly where?  In some tactical jacket?
Quote
Quote
1)  Every 'clip' gun that a character owns has 2 clips (the one in the gun and a spare).

I don't understand it. You mean max 2 clips or he just bought pistol and have extra clip with it? Normally you have only one (in gun).

I mean minimum.  1 in gun and one spare.  This is just convenience to the player so he won't be totally screwed after firing 7 rounds from a .45 ACP.
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domik
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2009, 09:44:49 AM »

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most commonly where?  In some tactical jacket?

I mean tactical vest. Jackets are not designed to carry magazine clips. Also If you put vest on our jacket the pockets on chest are practically unavailable until you unzip vest. Little easier is for pockets on belly but it slightly depends on tactical stuff.

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I mean minimum.  1 in gun and one spare.  This is just convenience to the player so he won't be totally screwed after firing 7 rounds from a .45 ACP.

I don't like this idea, that character have it just like that. We are 20 years after the war. I haven't read much in writing part, but from where would like to have electricity, bullets, gun powder,magazines and weapon parts even if we would like to do it just by ourself?

I can understand bow and 20 arrows but gunpowder-based weaponry should be less available.

I think that after bang people would loot everything. After 5 years everything would start to be unavailable to loot, and would be available only at traders. Thats my conception of world after.

Probably there could be possibility that 1 character = 1 gun but also there is possibility 1 trader = 10 guns, 9 characters = 0. There could be also possibility that at typical hunter home there is 1 rifle with 2 clips and few pockets of bullets.

In Poland we are not allowed do have weapons without license so even if there is weapon in house is gun with 1 magazine and bullets. I haven't read what law is in Finland. My father-in-law was hunter (he doesn't do it anymore) - they had 1 rifle at home and 1 shotgun. He sold rifle last year, haven't used it for last few years but most probably its ready to use (didn't asked him).

So it's very typical situation.


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zenbitz
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« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2009, 12:42:36 AM »

Domik  -your ideas are pretty sound... but you are assuming particular dress which I think is not warranted.  Furthermore, I am not sure it's worth the effort to alter ready slots based on what the character is actually wearing.  Which *could* mean that we start every PC with a tactical vest... but otherwise we can just keep it abstract.

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I don't like this idea, that character have it just like that. We are 20 years after the war. I haven't read much in writing part, but from where would like to have electricity, bullets, gun powder,magazines and weapon parts even if we would like to do it just by ourself?

I can understand bow and 20 arrows but gunpowder-based weaponry should be less available.

Well, first off - it goes without saying that I mean that IF you have a (clip) gun, it has 2 clips(minimum).
Secondly, I didn't say both clips would start FULL.  What I do mean is that if you happen to have 14 rounds for your .45 ACP pistol, you should not have to hunt the ruins/loot bodies/barter your soul for a second empty clip (you obv. have to have _one_ or the gun won't fire)
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domik
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« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2009, 10:25:03 AM »

I am not sure it's worth the effort to alter ready slots based on what the character is actually wearing.  Which *could* mean that we start every PC with a tactical vest... but otherwise we can just keep it abstract.

I have seen it in one of the games and it worked pretty well (can't remember which one). Player started with simple jacket and trousers so most of the things he should put in backpack. The bigger backpack was the more things he could take. Also basic equipment wasn't enough thats why you needed to buy something like tactical vest or simple belt with bags atteched to it.

I didn't liked it in most games better equipment was only more armor points and better look.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2009, 12:58:23 PM »

well Diablo had 4 or 5 quickslots at the beginning of the game, then with a belt you get another row, and with more advanced (read: cooler looking) belts you got more rows added to those quickslots. There it was also strictly limited to healing/mana potions.

How are throwable items treated ?
Do you 'equip' a rock/grenade ? Or do you have a pouch/pile of them in your quickslots and you can throw them from there, when there's nothing in your throwing hand ? special belt for throwing knives...
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zenbitz
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« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2009, 08:22:23 PM »


How are throwable items treated ?
Do you 'equip' a rock/grenade ? Or do you have a pouch/pile of them in your quickslots and you can throw them from there, when there's nothing in your throwing hand ? special belt for throwing knives...

Like any weapon, it has to be in your hand to use (throw).  I would say that it takes a "reload" (simple) action to grab one out of a "ready slot" and arm it.  More  if it's something tricky like a Molotov cocktail. (I would not really advise carrying a bunch of these in your belt).  Then throw.

I could imagine a "quick draw" skill (actually I don't need to imagine it, it's in 50% of all PnP RPGs) that would let you draw/arm/throw a grenade is one smooth action.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2009, 09:47:32 PM »

Domik  -your ideas are pretty sound... but you are assuming particular dress which I think is not warranted.  Furthermore, I am not sure it's worth the effort to alter ready slots based on what the character is actually wearing.  Which *could* mean that we start every PC with a tactical vest... but otherwise we can just keep it abstract.

I agree it would probably be too problematic to arbitrarily change your ready slots based on your equipment.

As an intermediate measure, some hard-coded ready slots could be activated if you had the right equipment, and would otherwise be unavailable.  The total number and type of possible ready slots would be determined from the start.
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domik
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« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2009, 08:34:08 PM »

Sorry, I hit "modify" instead of "quote" and deleted this! - zenbitz
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eleazzaar

I agree it would probably be too problematic to arbitrarily change your ready slots based on your equipment.

As an intermediate measure, some hard-coded ready slots could be activated if you had the right equipment, and would otherwise be unavailable.  The total number and type of possible ready slots would be determined from the start.
I agree with that.


What about PC/NPC line of sight ? There was something like this in commandos.

http://images.macologist.org/review_images/CBP/cbp1.jpg
http://www.atpm.com/11.11/images/commandos-detected.jpg

But personally I would like it the way it was made in JA (Jagged Alliance). So enemy could dissapear of line of sight but you could hear him (that is next question). I don't remember how it was made in other games Baldursgate etc. But something like "invisible" line of sight would be needed.

    * So how far could person see.
      What angles.
      Would this line of sight move from left to rigt like it was in commandos?
*


Next question about hearing
In JA you could hear from which direction enemy or NPC is comming. Having this would be nice.

Last question - interception in combat.

In JA there was this interception mode. When PC had AP and new enemy showed there was interception mode. So PC could make action shoot/run/hide. If enemy was hit it was intercepting his running state.

Same thing was with all party members. This thing I would like to have the most.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 01:00:25 AM by zenbitz » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2009, 01:02:49 AM »

- LOS yes, including hills
- Hearing (i.e. point sound sources) - Icelus talked me out of it, hard to code
- "Interception Mode" - I  think simply making the number of APs available to characters to act in a given turn makes this mostly unnecessary.  Characters will be able to "reserve" a move (somehow) and overwatch/interrupt an enemy (actually maybe this is what you meant)
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We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
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