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Author Topic: Temperature as a mechanic  (Read 16916 times)
Rippig
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2009, 02:46:15 AM »

Subdual damage is basically "non lethal" damage from PnP RPGs.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage

Once your subdual damage goes over your max HP, you become "unconscious" but don't die.  Lethal damage does the same amount of non lethal (subdual) damage (I think? It's been a while so someone might have to correct me on that).

Edit: Maybe this should be added to the glossary on the wiki?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 02:47:56 AM by Rippig » Logged
eleazzaar
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 03:57:30 AM »

I think there is a much simpler way to handle this.

A map section has a current temperature, and a wind speed (=> wind chill) - which might fluctuate.
Clothing is rated to a certain temperature (say -10C).  Above that temperature (which some "average" windchill figured in - not "maximum gust"), player wearing that is fine....

I'll match your "much simpler" and raise you an "even more simpler".

Throw out temperature and wind speed and just deal with the "chill factor" (i.e. wind chill).  I don't think we have any use for the temp and wind-speed by themselves. The chill factor is measurement that we really pay attention to in serious winter weather, anyway.

I don't think we want to mess with the mechanics of the volume of an enclosed space, the effectiveness of insulation, and the way a heat source (depending on it's temperature) gradually heats an enclosed space, etc.

Instead we can model buildings and enclosed structures as being X degrees warmer than the outside temperature.  Less for a lean-to or dilapidated house and much more for a good underground bunker.


If you are still "exposed" you take subdual damage every 5 minutes or so, until you are unconscious....

I'd suggest that the rate and/or severity of the damage should depend on the disparity between the rating of their clothing and the local temperature.  So that if your clothing is only slightly insufficient, you can hike for several hours and live, but if your clothing is extremely insufficient, you may collapse in a few minutes.  Will rolls (or the equivalent) could come into play to determine how long a character can stay on his feet while entering the sleepy -> comatose stage.

Otherwise it sounds good.



Maybe I'm hung up on this point because I think it would be a cool way to play with the player's mind through the PC and play with the theme of Human Vs Nature and Loneliness.

I think there are plenty of ways to make nature cruel and hostile without misconstruing the symptoms for hypothermia.  I expect a good percentage of our players will know a bit about survival, and while it's necessary to simply the facts to make this RPG, it would be rather hard to explain going beyond them in that manner.  If you want people going psycho, look up "cabin fever," though it won't easily apply to the PC and his party.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 05:47:00 AM »

Subdual damage is basically "non lethal" damage from PnP RPGs.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage

Once your subdual damage goes over your max HP, you become "unconscious" but don't die.  Lethal damage does the same amount of non lethal (subdual) damage (I think? It's been a while so someone might have to correct me on that).

Edit: Maybe this should be added to the glossary on the wiki?

No one searched the parpg wiki?
http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Thoughts_on_wounding#Subdual_Damage

Yeah, I am not at the "glossary" stage yet.  I will wait till I put stuff in proposals.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 05:50:07 AM »

Quote
I like this implementation, it's really intuitive with subdual damage affecting skills and so forth.  However, I'm still hung up on the delirium aspect reinforcing or enhancing aspects of themes in the story.  Unless that's not where we want to go with it, that's fine, just wanted that point of view out there to discuss.  I'm definitely not saying this has to be a part of the game, just something "cool" I guess with game play mechanics affecting the story and the story affecting game play mechanics.

I agree - it's cool.  (har har) but the problem is that by the time it happens the PC is basically at "reload" stage anyway.  We might want to use your idea in a sneaky way though - instead of a core game mechanic (where we have to quantify the effects blah de blah) - we could use it as a Deus Ex Machina to "rescue" a hapless party stuck out lost in a blizzard... they start to go delerious (essentially a cut-scene at this point), and wake up somewhere else...  (see permadeath thread for more like this).
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zenbitz
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 05:54:31 AM »


I'll match your "much simpler" and raise you an "even more simpler".

Throw out temperature and wind speed and just deal with the "chill factor" (i.e. wind chill).  I don't think we have any use for the temp and wind-speed by themselves. The chill factor is measurement that we really pay attention to in serious winter weather, anyway.

Not sure that yours is any simpler than T+Wind = wind chill (this is a lookup table) and buildings just subtract wind first, then add T.  I guess the question comes down to whether we want "wind" in the game at all.  It seems easier to me to keep track of weather this way - as isotherms across the map and local wind effects +/- precipitation.

Quote
I don't think we want to mess with the mechanics of the volume of an enclosed space, the effectiveness of insulation, and the way a heat source (depending on it's temperature) gradually heats an enclosed space, etc.

No of course not.



Quote
I'd suggest that the rate and/or severity of the damage should depend on the disparity between the rating of their clothing and the local temperature.  So that if your clothing is only slightly insufficient, you can hike for several hours and live, but if your clothing is extremely insufficient, you may collapse in a few minutes.  Will rolls (or the equivalent) could come into play to determine how long a character can stay on his feet while entering the sleepy -> comatose stage

Yeah, since we already have a rating for clothes we can use the delta (i.e Teff = -40, Tclothes = -20, then delta = 20 degrees) to determine the  rate of pain.
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Lamoot
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 01:57:43 PM »

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I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as bad as i think you are making it sound.

* All inside assets would not need seasonal variants
* Many outside assets would only need to variants (with snow piled on and without snow) like for instance rocks
* all water tiles would have 1 winter variant: ice
* only assets with vegetation would ever really make sense to have more than 2 seasonal variation
** Plants like pine trees don't change much and would just need 2 variations (with snow and without snow)

Am i forgetting anything?

EDIT: So essentially more than 2 seasons would increase the work for map-makers, but would n't add much to the art-creator's burden.  Much of it could be accomplished by changing the color of the leaves on the deciduous trees.

In the long run there's nothing wrong with having many seasons, but for the demo stage our apetites should be limited. There's a difference between having a single set of graphics needed for the demo (next step/milestone) and 2x or 1,5x the amount of needed assets. The number depends on the ratio between inside and outside maps. Early over-ambition regularly cripples hobby projects.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 07:00:26 PM »

So the first step would be to have one of everything (assets) covered in snow - enough for the Demo. stating the obvious, I know..

Though the mechanics should still be on paper for further development after the Demonstration's release so the discussion's not moot yet.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 08:14:51 PM »

In the long run there's nothing wrong with having many seasons, but for the demo stage our apetites should be limited. There's a difference between having a single set of graphics needed for the demo (next step/milestone) and 2x or 1,5x the amount of needed assets....

Of course, I was talking about longer term.  There's no need to implement seasons in any way for our first release(s).

But if/when we do implement seasons it looks like 4 seasons is not much more work than 2. Indeed it might be totally up to the map-maker how many variations to use.  Some maps  may show little seasonal variation, (barren rocky places, etc.) while a crazy, ambitious map-maker might want to show changes happening in 8 or 12 gradations.



Not sure that yours is any simpler than T+Wind = wind chill (this is a lookup table) and buildings just subtract wind first, then add T.  I guess the question comes down to whether we want "wind" in the game at all.  It seems easier to me to keep track of weather this way - as isotherms across the map and local wind effects +/- precipitation.

Then the question comes down to if it is feasible and valuable to implement weather to a such a level of detail.  I don't claim to have the answer to that, but really do you think the player could tell the different if weather was caused by calculated isotherms, or merely slow random variations on an average temperature, wind direction and precipitation for each month?
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Gaspard
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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 08:57:09 PM »

Quote
Quote
[Quote from: Lamoot on Today at 01:57:43 PM]
In the long run there's nothing wrong with having many seasons, but for the demo stage our apetites should be limited. There's a difference between having a single set of graphics needed for the demo (next step/milestone) and 2x or 1,5x the amount of needed assets....

Of course, I was talking about longer term.  There's no need to implement seasons in any way for our first release(s).

But if/when we do implement seasons it looks like 4 seasons is not much more work than 2. Indeed it might be totally up to the map-maker how many variations to use.  Some maps  may show little seasonal variation, (barren rocky places, etc.) while a crazy, ambitious map-maker might want to show changes happening in 8 or 12 gradations.

is that the question to the programmers ? But what's the way the seasonal changes are going to happen ?
Would individual art be changed according to time of year like trees on a map will be swapped for their winter/summer equivalents or will the whole map change literally and just the NPCs stay put
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zenbitz
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« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2009, 12:20:46 AM »

Quote
Quote
[Quote from: Lamoot on Today at 01:57:43 PM]
In the long run there's nothing wrong with having many seasons, but for the demo stage our apetites should be limited. There's a difference between having a single set of graphics needed for the demo (next step/milestone) and 2x or 1,5x the amount of needed assets....

Of course, I was talking about longer term.  There's no need to implement seasons in any way for our first release(s).

But if/when we do implement seasons it looks like 4 seasons is not much more work than 2. Indeed it might be totally up to the map-maker how many variations to use.  Some maps  may show little seasonal variation, (barren rocky places, etc.) while a crazy, ambitious map-maker might want to show changes happening in 8 or 12 gradations.

is that the question to the programmers ? But what's the way the seasonal changes are going to happen ?
Would individual art be changed according to time of year like trees on a map will be swapped for their winter/summer equivalents or will the whole map change literally and just the NPCs stay put

It's a question for the artists.  Who have to create assets for 2 or 4 seasons.  I think eleazzar thinks there are ways around it.
I think, for game play/realism we need 2-4 seasons.   Since I don't fancy making the art, I will leave it up to the artists to decide what they can make...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 08:43:22 PM by zenbitz » Logged

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zenbitz
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« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2009, 12:24:47 AM »

Then the question comes down to if it is feasible and valuable to implement weather to a such a level of detail.  I don't claim to have the answer to that, but really do you think the player could tell the different if weather was caused by calculated isotherms, or merely slow random variations on an average temperature, wind direction and precipitation for each month?

It actually to ease the load on programmer/game desingner.  If the weather was more or less static - then you are correct, it wouldn't matter and your way would be easier.  But if we have:

a) seasonal variation
b) "ice age" effects (i.e, year+2 is colder all around than year+1)

The it makes sense to consider a (simple) dynamic system where - for example, last years "arctic tundra line" moves south at X km/year.

My next game mechanics action item is to research this and propose something...
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2009, 05:11:39 AM »

b) "ice age" effects (i.e, year+2 is colder all around than year+1)

The it makes sense to consider a (simple) dynamic system where - for example, last years "arctic tundra line" moves south at X km/year.

Yeah, that's a tricky point.  I like the idea that the world is gradually growing colder... basically it makes the world gradually more deadly in a logical way.

On the other hand, i'm not sure how well it will mesh with the idea of episodic content if it is unknown what year exactly an episode will take place in.  With an automatic weather, and a rather slow player we might have a guy written and described as a farmer who is actually beyond the permafrost line.  I don't think it's practical to have all the NPCs have a logical response to all possible weather conditions...
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zenbitz
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« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2009, 08:45:33 PM »

b) "ice age" effects (i.e, year+2 is colder all around than year+1)

The it makes sense to consider a (simple) dynamic system where - for example, last years "arctic tundra line" moves south at X km/year.

Yeah, that's a tricky point.  I like the idea that the world is gradually growing colder... basically it makes the world gradually more deadly in a logical way.

On the other hand, i'm not sure how well it will mesh with the idea of episodic content if it is unknown what year exactly an episode will take place in.  With an automatic weather, and a rather slow player we might have a guy written and described as a farmer who is actually beyond the permafrost line.  I don't think it's practical to have all the NPCs have a logical response to all possible weather conditions...

I think the episodes would all have to have a "time window of viability" when they are allowed to take place.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2009, 09:07:54 PM »

I think the episodes would all have to have a "time window of viability" when they are allowed to take place.

Well, that's one way of dealing with things, though it has the downside of potentially limiting or even totally eliminating your next episode options if you move through the episodes at a rate that's too much faster or slower than the "expected" rate.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2009, 07:44:01 AM »

I believe i figured out how to keep the encroaching ice age without messing episodes up.
http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=56.msg1223#msg1223
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