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Author Topic: Temperature as a mechanic  (Read 19111 times)
Rippig
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« on: March 16, 2009, 08:19:17 AM »

I wanted to start this post so it didn't get lost in all of the discussion where this idea was brought up.

Both in the PARPG name change thread and I believe the game's setting discussion in the writing forums it was brought up that the game would take place during (after?) a nuclear winter.  The environment would probably (most definitely?) be cold and in the PARPG name change thread it was obvious it was one of the main themes on some people's minds.

Just some quick notes that I'd like to jot down as some ways that temperature can be a factor in many aspects of the game:

1. Slowed Movement
2. Reduced skill check chances (aiming/firing guns for example)
3. Possible bodily injury when exposed for an extended period of time
4. Perhaps a temporary reduction in skill level/stats (emulating the effect the extreme cold would have on actions)
5. Disorientation or hallucinations if traveling a long time in the extreme cold.

Possible ways to limit or heal the effects of temperature

1. Clothing (different types with different effectiveness)
2. Getting into shelter
3. Being near a heat source (This doesn't have to necessarily be indoors).
4. Maybe some kind of item in your inventory that has limited use or one-time use? (A portable heater seems kind of absurd, though)

Implementation:

The temperature would be an attribute of the map that affected objects over time.  Bodily temperature would be an attribute of all living beings.  More research should probably be done in how the heat loss transfer should occur, unless we don't care about being realistic in this case.

(Side note, depending on the weather, perhaps the maps could be dynamic, such as frozen lakes becoming liquid depending on the time of year.  I remember reading something about seasons to allow for farmers to actually grow food.  So in fact, temperature could be an attribute of all objects, even map tiles.)

This doesn't have to apply to just the PC.  One use might be randomly generated events where a perfectly normal human starts acting irrationally due to the extreme cold that he's been lost in and attacks the PC.  The PC can either kill him, help him, or any other choice you can think of, depending on how far the NPC has become delirious.

Thoughts?
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zenbitz
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 07:08:29 PM »

I was just about to start on this section.
Can you add this to a new wiki page linked here: http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Mechanics#World_locations.2C_environment_and_navigation

Your ideas seem good, if a little be detailed... but who am I to talk?
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 07:47:20 PM »

Side note, depending on the weather, perhaps the maps could be dynamic, such as frozen lakes becoming liquid depending on the time of year.  I remember reading something about seasons to allow for farmers to actually grow food.  So in fact, temperature could be an attribute of all objects, even map tiles.)

We definitely need to be able to have different temperatures on the inside and outside.  If we keep the interiors on the same map as in FO.


If we make seasonal variations of the maps, i don't think we can rely on an automatic mechanism... or i think that would require more work and give worse results.  I'd recommend producing variant maps, which give you more control.  Obviously a lot of the same graphics could be used indoors and outdoors (dirt floor is the same as outside dirt.), but you don't want the snow piling up inside in the winter... unless it is an abandoned house.


One use might be randomly generated events where a perfectly normal human starts acting irrationally due to the extreme cold that he's been lost in and attacks the PC.
Cold doesn't cause people to act irrationally and violently.  Isolation and "cabin fever" could have those effects, but not low temperatures.

If you are too cold, your body and brain start to shut down you get clumsy, vague and slow.  It's called hypothermia.  It's not anything like you imagine.
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domik
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 09:23:02 PM »

Quote from: Rippig
1. Slowed Movement

Depends on how much snow is squeezed (don't know if its right word). If there would be tracks that are commonly used it would be a lot easier.

Quote from: Rippig
2. Reduced skill check chances (aiming/firing guns for example)

I didn't see difference after 3-4h with -7 to -10 Celcius (I mean running and aiming). Of curse if your clothes will get wet, any break in movement will be seen in short period of time.

Quote from: Rippig
3. Possible bodily injury when exposed for an extended period of time
4. Perhaps a temporary reduction in skill level/stats (emulating the effect the extreme cold would have on actions)
Agree

Quote from: Rippig
4. Maybe some kind of item in your inventory that has limited use or one-time use? (A portable heater seems kind of absurd, though)

There are heaters based on salt with something? with metal circle that click's. After this click there is chemical reaction and for 20 min hey are warm so it's not an absurd for me.

We must think what people would do in this 20 years - for me scientists would think only how to to make their life "warmer"

Implementation:

Quote from: Rippig
The temperature would be an attribute of the map that affected objects over time.  Bodily temperature would be an attribute of all living beings.  More research should probably be done in how the heat loss transfer should occur, unless we don't care about being realistic in this case.

Basically it's thermodynamics. I had one similar example at laboratories at univeristy. Made it in exel, probably won't find any example from studies but I'll look for it.
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tie
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 09:25:32 PM »

Temperature is only different on the inside, if there is some device that changes it (e.g. a heater, a fire,etc). The wind however, is different (i.e. there is no, or less wind inside a house), so the windchill factor is different.

What I'm suggesting is that any "cold" mechanics should revolve around the windcill factor, rather than the temperature.



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Rippig
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 10:11:33 PM »

I should probably have linked where I got the information I used to kind of determine some uses of temperature for gameplay mechanics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoregulation


One use might be randomly generated events where a perfectly normal human starts acting irrationally due to the extreme cold that he's been lost in and attacks the PC.
Cold doesn't cause people to act irrationally and violently.  Isolation and "cabin fever" could have those effects, but not low temperatures.

If you are too cold, your body and brain start to shut down you get clumsy, vague and slow.  It's called hypothermia.  It's not anything like you imagine.

From the Thermoregulation page on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoregulation#Cold

Quote
Cold

    * 37°C (98.6°F) - Normal body temperature (which varies between about 36-37.5°C (96.8-99.5°F)
    * 36°C (96.8°F) - Mild to moderate shivering (it drops this low during sleep). May be a normal body temperature.
    * 35°C (95.0°F) - (Hypothermia) is less than 35°C (95.0°F) - Intense shivering, numbness and bluish/grayness of the skin. There is the possibility of heart irritability.
    * 34°C (93.2°F) - Severe shivering, loss of movement of fingers, blueness and confusion. Some behavioural changes may take place.
    * 33°C (91.4°F) - Moderate to severe confusion, sleepiness, depressed reflexes, progressive loss of shivering, slow heart beat, shallow breathing. Shivering may stop. Subject may be unresponsive to certain stimuli.
    * 32°C (89.6°F) - (Medical emergency) Hallucinations, delirium, complete confusion, extreme sleepiness that is progressively becoming comatose. Shivering is absent (subject may even think they are hot). Reflex may be absent or very slight.
    * 31°C (87.8°F) - Comatose, very rarely conscious. No or slight reflexes. Very shallow breathing and slow heart rate. Possibility of serious heart rhythm problems.
    * 28°C (82.4°F) - Severe heart rhythm disturbances are likely and breathing may stop at any time. Patient may appear to be dead.
    * 24-26°C (75.2-78.8°F) or less - Death usually occurs due to irregular heart beat or respiratory arrest; however, some patients have been known to survive with body temperatures as low as 14.2°C (57.5°F).[20]


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domik
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 10:22:20 PM »

So probably we should just set the minimal temperature outside for "winter", spring etc.
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Lamoot
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 10:36:15 PM »

Temperature might have to be a tile property, not only a map property. Let's say you enter a tent or get near a camp fire, your surrounding temperature would be modified.

For seasons, there is the idea of using 2 seasons only, a frozen season and a thawed season, to spare some work for the graphics artists. If each sprite has 1 version for each of the seasons, the amount of needed stuff can grow rather rapidly.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 11:28:22 PM »

    * 32°C (89.6°F) - (Medical emergency) Hallucinations, delirium, complete confusion, extreme sleepiness that is progressively becoming comatose. Shivering is absent (subject may even think they are hot). Reflex may be absent or very slight.

Yeah? So how is someone nearly comatose going to attack someone, not matter how confused they are?


For seasons, there is the idea of using 2 seasons only, a frozen season and a thawed season, to spare some work for the graphics artists. If each sprite has 1 version for each of the seasons, the amount of needed stuff can grow rather rapidly.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's not as bad as i think you are making it sound.

* All inside assets would not need seasonal variants
* Many outside assets would only need to variants (with snow piled on and without snow) like for instance rocks
* all water tiles would have 1 winter variant: ice
* only assets with vegetation would ever really make sense to have more than 2 seasonal variation
** Plants like pine trees don't change much and would just need 2 variations (with snow and without snow)

Am i forgetting anything?

EDIT: So essentially more than 2 seasons would increase the work for map-makers, but would n't add much to the art-creator's burden.  Much of it could be accomplished by changing the color of the leaves on the deciduous trees.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 11:36:29 PM by eleazzaar » Logged
zenbitz
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 11:53:40 PM »

I think there is a much simpler way to handle this.

A map section has a current temperature, and a wind speed (=> wind chill) - which might fluctuate.
Clothing is rated to a certain temperature (say -10C).  Above that temperature (which some "average" windchill figured in - not "maximum gust"), player wearing that is fine.

Buildings (even a trivial "lean-to") simply cut the windchill factor to basically zero - even with no insulating factor.  Buildings ("permanent" or temporary shelter)  could either have a (very low) temperature rating - like clothes, or simply have an equivlalent T.  Like an igloo is basically 0 deg C.  No matter how cold it gets outside - a foot thick of ice insulates you.

So - if you have inadequate shelter for the current T (including clothes), then you are "Exposed".
You must provide yourself "heat" (make a fire, eat some food, expend energy).  Each of these only gets you a few degrees back. (When Napoleon marched on Russia, some of his soliders froze to death - from the back in - WHILE IN FRONT of the fire).

If you are still "exposed" you take subdual damage every 5 minutes or so, until you are unconscious.... nothing else really need be simulated (subdual damage also effects your skills, etc.).

Not sure if we should bother with a frost bite mechanic - either it will be very minor, or it will be crippling = death from the player perspective.





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tie
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« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2009, 01:25:20 AM »

Quote
Like an igloo is basically 0 deg C.  No matter how cold it gets outside - a foot thick of ice insulates you.

That's not quite true. Insulation does not create heat - it simply preserves (to an extent) the heat that is already in the insulated area. If there is no heat source in the igloo (like a heater, or a wam human body), the temperature inside will be what is on the outside. Once you enter the igloo, its temperature will gradually start to rise, because of the heat emitted by your body. It is hard to imagine however, that your body alone will be able to raise the temperature in any kind of igloo from say -30 to 0 C.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 01:41:33 AM »

It is hard to imagine however, that your body alone will be able to raise the temperature in any kind of igloo from say -30 to 0 C.

Snow is a very good insulator.  I've built a few enclosed snow shelters, and while the outside temperature wasn't -30C, using body temperature alone the temperature rockets up so that some of the hats, scarves etc. that were necessary to keep warm outside while active were no longer needed while laying around inside, usually unzipping the coat part-way is called for.  The ground/floor is still pretty cold however.
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Rippig
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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 01:55:58 AM »

    * 32°C (89.6°F) - (Medical emergency) Hallucinations, delirium, complete confusion, extreme sleepiness that is progressively becoming comatose. Shivering is absent (subject may even think they are hot). Reflex may be absent or very slight.

Yeah? So how is someone nearly comatose going to attack someone, not matter how confused they are?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia#Paradoxical_undressing

From what I understand is that you are not hallucinating and delirious while you are comatose, but prolonged exposure to your current situation while you are in this state will lead you to becoming comatose.  Basically the delirium can be considered a warning sign of "hey you need help."  A kind of state before you become comatose and your probability of survival becomes 0.

Maybe I'm hung up on this point because I think it would be a cool way to play with the player's mind through the PC and play with the theme of Human Vs Nature and Loneliness.  I just think if we don't want to get the reputation of some Generic RPG #3 we need to bring a really unique feature that you build a game around, such as temperature, and that it has a real effect on the game and the story.


I think there is a much simpler way to handle this.

A map section has a current temperature, and a wind speed (=> wind chill) - which might fluctuate.
Clothing is rated to a certain temperature (say -10C).  Above that temperature (which some "average" windchill figured in - not "maximum gust"), player wearing that is fine.

Buildings (even a trivial "lean-to") simply cut the windchill factor to basically zero - even with no insulating factor.  Buildings ("permanent" or temporary shelter)  could either have a (very low) temperature rating - like clothes, or simply have an equivlalent T.  Like an igloo is basically 0 deg C.  No matter how cold it gets outside - a foot thick of ice insulates you.

So - if you have inadequate shelter for the current T (including clothes), then you are "Exposed".
You must provide yourself "heat" (make a fire, eat some food, expend energy).  Each of these only gets you a few degrees back. (When Napoleon marched on Russia, some of his soliders froze to death - from the back in - WHILE IN FRONT of the fire).

If you are still "exposed" you take subdual damage every 5 minutes or so, until you are unconscious.... nothing else really need be simulated (subdual damage also effects your skills, etc.).

Not sure if we should bother with a frost bite mechanic - either it will be very minor, or it will be crippling = death from the player perspective.


I like this implementation, it's really intuitive with subdual damage affecting skills and so forth.  However, I'm still hung up on the delirium aspect reinforcing or enhancing aspects of themes in the story.  Unless that's not where we want to go with it, that's fine, just wanted that point of view out there to discuss.  I'm definitely not saying this has to be a part of the game, just something "cool" I guess with game play mechanics affecting the story and the story affecting game play mechanics.
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 02:08:36 AM »

what's this "subdual" that keeps getting mentioned?  My dictionary and Google's "Define:" know nothing of it.
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icelus
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 02:18:04 AM »

I've been assuming it was some Americanism for sub-dermal (i.e. under the skin); now you mention it though it occurs to me it's probably a RP term, so I'm glad you brought it up Smiley
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