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Author Topic: PERMADEATH  (Read 42555 times)
mvBarracuda
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« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2009, 02:34:14 PM »

Hmm I really loved critical hits (and failures) in Fallout. Might be pretty frustrating to be critically hit in permadeath mode :-/
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DK
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« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2009, 07:34:41 PM »

how about a compromise? No permadeath but no manual saves.

Autosaves every 5 mins in rolling slots.. the number depending on the difficulty level you are playing on. This way when you die you only have to play through 5 mins to get to the same pont. If we make the game have major consequences for actions performed more than 5/10/15 etc.. mins ago then the player may find themselves in an unwinnable situation and so have to go back to the beginning and start a new character.  On the death of the character we should have the opton presented to "retire" them as in Civ series. This would save a score and information in an hall of fame, perhaps on the net, then delete all the autosaves. Should borrow from consoles perhaps allow only a set number of games simultaeneously, so that the player has to really think how to get the most of any individual run through.

We should also have the possibility for the pc to get seriously nerfed in the course of the game so if they make bad decisions then though theoretically possible for them to finish, it's just going to get harder and harder.. of course nerfing can be annoying but perhaps make some form or another of it practically unavoidable to go and find a cure for said nerfing, would be a quest in itself.
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tie
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« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2009, 08:07:29 PM »

Quote
Things like permadeath only work if you have to work with them. I've had a hard time making this point, so consider a wizard mode, where your rolls are always fudged so you cannot die (always get a critical success as needed). Would you be against a third mode, wizard mode?

I don't really agree here. As I understand, your point is that if you have Normal mode, no one will ever play in Permadeath mode. However, I've personally played Diablo 2 in normal mode first, and then switched to Hardcore (Permadeath) for the added challenge.

As for the Wizard mode - if there are enough people that would enjoy this mode over the rest, why not add it to the game? It is a game after all, and it's primary purpose is to entertain. We should not forecefully impose just one mode of entertainment, if a substantial part of the players would want another one.

As you pointed out Permadeath/Normal/Wizard are just levels in the difficulty spectrum, generally the same thing as Hard/Normal/Easy in most games, just more extreme. Do you think all players just go with the Easy in games? I don't thihk so. So, adding a less difficult mode does not automatically mean that everyone would go with it.

I'm all for Permadeath mode, but as a choice, and not as a restriction.
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psyho
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2009, 03:06:21 PM »

I think there is a more pragmatic reason for not forcing permadeath in the game. If the parmadeath mode forces you to think more about the decisions you make in the game, like taking/skipping quests and locations, wouldn't that hurt the game experience if we have a limited number of quests/locations? Let's face it: we may never have a world of the same size as commercial games like Fallout, etc. so wouldn't it make sense to make it easier for people to experience what we have?

I'm all for having a painfully realistic mode in the game, but as an opt-in feature, not something that you are forced into. Same goes to the easy/sandbox mode - I'm sure that some people like that kind of gameplay.

My question is: should it be possible to switch between modes in-game? Like: I'm playing most of the time in the normal mode, and switch to hardcore if I find a particular quest too easy, and maybe to the sandbox mode if I find that I'm stuck?
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eleazzaar
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »

The aspect that hasn't yet been considered is what is necessary to actually make the game.

To for testing and troubleshooting we'll need to be able to save/load the game.

An invincible mode (refered to as "wizard mode" here) would also be a very useful tool for someone who wants to test something out quickly without putting effort into fighting.
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Jeoshua
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« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2009, 07:11:38 PM »

I'm completely in support of all three modes of gaming (except Wizard mode, which is best left as an "undocumented" cheat).

If it were up to me, I'd have the Ironman/Permadeath option be accessable as the highest notch of the difficulty bar (ie, the "Nightmare" mode).  In it, everything should be as hard as possible, harder than the hard mode.  There would be only one save slot available per person, and the autosave should be your only option.  When you die, that save is removed from the system (deleted!).  Also, if you start a game in ironman mode, there is no changing difficulty levels halfway through in order to save, unlike in more "normal" modes, where you should be able to change difficulty at will.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2009, 08:53:00 PM »

Hmmm... some debate on this topic.

I pretty much have come full circle on permadeath.... it's just so hard to make deadly combat work with permadeath.
I did have the original idea to just Deus Ex Machina the PC all over the place (i.,e most of the time when you "die" you don't really die, you get captured, or Obi Wan scares away the Tuskan Raiders and takes you in)

As El points out - we need SOME form of save/load for debugging.  It can always be disabled, etc.    We also need at least autosave in case of power outage, cat on the keyboard, etc.

So that being said - we can design the game we like, and have all options and defaults available or not on "release".
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We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
Jeoshua
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2009, 01:07:18 AM »

Might I add that making Ironman the ONLY option is, of course, bad.  Not only from a game testing standpoint but also a fan-based standpoint.  If it's in there, the player should be deciding whether he is an Ironman type of guy.
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Gaspard
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« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2009, 01:36:45 AM »

wouldn't it be easy enough programming-wise to let you to choose to save in only certain safe-spots like in Fallout Tactics (there it was in BOS bunkers).
You'd check the option on the Character Creation screen or in the Options menu with the game Difficulty setting, it could be an integrated part of the Very Crazy Difficult template.

It's not pure Permadeath, but it makes you more cautious none-the-less
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zenbitz
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« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2009, 12:31:34 AM »

So, icelus has swayed me the other way again in IRC logs
http://www.unknown-horizons.org/parpglogs/?action=view&chan=parpg&date=2009-03-09

i
Quote
celus>you haven't deprived them of an ending
icelus>you deprived them of a disney ending

icelus>why not just have a wizard mode where you can kill anything with a lightning bolt

A key point is that most rogue-likes which cause "permadeath hate" have too much random death.  So we need to be very careful about killing PC.  I have previous posts in this thread re: Deus Ex Machina's to "transport" you to a different part of the game.  So it's it's a "setback" like having to reload the game - but one in which you have less control as a player.


I cannot fight the tide of having something "alternate" to permadeath, but we can
a) make it the default - call "reload" mode "Disney Mode" you have to select. 
b) design the game to be "most suited" to playing in permadeath mode (i.e, Disney mode would be too easy - maybe even as easy as Wizard/god mode.
c) Taunt the player for wimping out if they chose Disney mode.

- as a "nicer" way of doing this
d) use the number of PC deaths as a score.  As in "you finished the game, but took you: 34894 deaths, Your rank: Amateur"


I do think this will require, at a minimum, the ability to save your character's DESIGN so you don't have to redo that particular process.   It might be a reasonable compromise to have "episodic" permadeth (assuming we go with the elezzar plan), so that once you complete an episode, the game is saved.

The bottom line is (again) is that we can change this if we have to, but might as well TRY to make a   
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We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
Gaspard
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« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2009, 12:44:51 AM »

hey Zenbitz is it possible that your post was not finished ?

/edit/ bleh
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 12:47:10 AM by Gaspard » Logged
domik
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« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2009, 12:13:16 PM »

I understand that some people would like that option but what about saving/loading game while exiting. If we design that game so you need 100h of playing to finish it you won't have game opened all time. One of the option is automatically saving it in exit and loading on continue.

But to do this we need profiles.
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zenbitz
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« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2009, 02:21:32 AM »

Quote
The bottom line is (again) is that we can change this if we have to, but might as well TRY to make a   

Hmmm... uh...

"try to make a game that is fun in permadeath mode, we can always take it out later"

I guess that's what I was going to say
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We are not denying them an ending...
We are denying them a DISNEY ending - Icelus
freepower
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« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2009, 12:37:01 AM »

I must say, the idea of permadeath in paRPG gives me shivers of excitement.

After years of grim, nasty enviroments where a wrong word to a shifty character could mean a knife in the back, where every long trek was a calculated risk... and then wham, simple as reloading a save to wipe the consequences.

I think that permadeath and an inverted story tree as described by ZB would actually be a distinctive choice in todays gaming enviroment, highly replayable and entertaining.

Is it that hard to add a degree of procedural generation to the early game based on class/stat/background story choices? That would be excellent even in a nonPD situation.
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mvBarracuda
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« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2009, 01:15:44 PM »

I think some variation created by random encounters sounds like a good idea indeed. At least it worked pretty well for me in Fallout and Arcanum though we'll need to take game balancing into account as well. There might be players who will try to abuse random encounters for powergaming purposes though the proposed game design (time limit, just few experience points gained through combat) seems to address that pretty well.
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