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31  Development / Mechanics / Re: PROPOSAL: Encumbrance, Armor and Clothes on: April 07, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
I hit "edit" or "modify" a lot on forums where i have mod access.  It's easy to do since the same number of options aren't always available when you only mod some of the subforums.  Let's see what can be salvaged...

Quote from: zenbitz
Why do we have strict limits on how big an object a person can carry by bulk? IMHO it would make more sense to have such a limit by weight, and not a hard limit, but one according to the character's strength (or similar stat).

I actually don't think I meant that.  But we have bulk limits by containers, below.

This is what i'm talking about: (emphasis mine)

Quote
....
* 256 Extremely Large (medium box, back pack, watermelon, >6 locations worth of armor)
* 512 Huge - (large chest, bicycle, major appliance) these things cannot be carried for long distances, but can be moved.
* >512Too Big - You cannot lift or move this alone. If it's <=1024, then 2 people can treat it as a Huge object, etc.

IMHO limits on what you can lift and carry and for how long are better dealt with by weight (via encumbrance).  If we rely on that we can just replace the last two with:

* 512+ Huge - (large chest, bicycle, major appliance) requires both hands.


Quote from: zenbitz
"Properly Stored".  Basically what it comes down to is that you can put twice as much bulk in anywhere (other than the hands, or ready slot) than it's listed capacity.  What's the point?  Why tell the player he has a back-pack with a 300 bulk capacity, if he can actually put 600 bulk in it?

.....is that it's so OBVIOUSLY easier to carry, say a rifle, or a sleeping bag, or other BULKY item  strapped to you or shoved in a sack than just grabbing it and carrying it.

I understand what you are talking about.  If we need to simulate this (and i would be perfectly happy if we didn't), bulk is the wrong quantity for it to effect.

Instead we might say that any items held in the hands count double (or 1.5 times, whatever) when calculating encumbrance.


Quote from: zenbitz
Quote from: eleazzaar
You want to limit containers by 3 factors?  Weight, total bulk, and a max item size.....

Yeah, this is dumb isn't it?    We can modify to single bulk limit.

...And there was much rejoicing


Quote from: zenbitz
Quote from: eleazar
Don't forget water and fire resistances.  That varies with each material too, right?  So a character dressed in relatively complete armor could easily have around 100 stats describing that armor, right?

Well, so what.  Computers are pretty good at that sort of thing.   And if some powergamer complains that he cannot figure out the best possible combination of things to wear vs. every attack type, he ain't getting much sympathy from me.

I'm more concerned with the likelyhood of ordinary gamers having no clue how to evaluate their armor.

Quote from: zenbitz
Fire and water resistance could easily be made binary (y/n), or fire resistence = crush damage resistence.
I would point out that FALLOUT had way more than 3 damage resistances!  Like 7 or 8!

Actually i'm extremely pleased with the restraint in making only 3 main damage types.
I think you are being whimsical, but if not i'll point out that FO IIRC had only one piece of armor, so they could have dozens of damage resistance types and still have a simpler armor set-up.


Quote from: zenbitz
Quote from: eleazar
One aspect which IMHO can clearly be done away with is "handedness".  What's the gameplay value in treating the right and left shoe/boot/glove/greave/etc as separate objects? I don't see any.  Let's make them all come in pairs and eliminate one superfluous stat.

Both the "single glove" and "piecemeal" armor rules - to me - are because of the post apocalyptic world setting.  In this kind of a setting, with little or no manufacturing,  protective equipment would be gleaned and improvised where possible.  This is also the  reason for the (otherwise superflourous) quality rating.    A well made pre-war artifact (say a military helmet) in good condition is going to be "better" than taking some old stock pot and hammering it out to fit your head.

This is ALSO the main reason for 35 hit locations!  I could certainly do "combat and injury" with 6-8 locations, but if some snowy wastland warrior wants to put a steel plate on his left shoulder (only) he should be able to do so, and have it matter.


But stepping further back, i'm not sure that such a complex armor system really makes sense in this game.  It seems to imply that characters will frequently have rather unevenly distributed protection (steel plate on left shoulder) etc.  But besides the aesthetics (which we probably won't get to see anyway, since there will be a limited number of sprites) what gameplay role does all this armor have?  It tends to imply that there will be a significant advantage to targeting a character's weak spot.  But how is the player going to know what an enemies' weak spot is?  It seems like it would really bog down turn based combat to be presented with 35 possible hit locations each with different stats, even if we limit it to the stats the player could reasonably infer.  Or if the player doesn't usually have control over which location he is targeting, or if he can target but doesn't know what kind of defense is there, it seems like combat would be very random.

How is all this supposed to fit into combat?


I mean if the goal of this project was to create an in-depth armor-crafting simulation, i would bow before you.  But it's not clear to me that such a system fits well with everything else.

32  Development / Programming / Re: Map classes on: April 06, 2009, 06:57:37 PM
What exactly is the difference between tiles with "height" and "fake elevations"?

The "fake elevation" that we're talking about is a technique that uses specially created art to make things look like they are on different levels.  But there's no concept of "height" or "elevation" in the engine.  Such a system would give weird results for things like "line of sight".

See this page for exhaustive explanation:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Disciples_2
33  Development / Graphics / Re: Environment Sprites on: April 06, 2009, 03:44:42 AM
Hey, we ought to use Lamoot's untextured guy,


He doesn't animate or anything, but at least he's the right size.  Lamoot can you render one with a transparent background?
34  Development / Graphics / Re: Environment Sprites on: April 05, 2009, 05:00:11 PM
Cool. Smiley

I guess that means i should make a full set of transitions for a couple terrains.
35  Development / Programming / Re: Map classes on: April 05, 2009, 04:56:39 PM
Perhaps I should also add that buildings may have multiple levels, but you can only see one level at a time.

Not that i disagree with the statement, but we haven't really discussed the pros and cons of different ways of doing interiors.  Do you want that in this thread, or should i start another?
36  Development / Mechanics / Re: PROPOSAL: Encumbrance, Armor and Clothes on: April 05, 2009, 04:21:16 AM
EDIT: Another mangled post.  Seriously, i know it's easy to hit "modify" instead of "edit", but not catching it and doing it twice, is just sloppy.

Quote from: zenbitz
Quote from: eleazar
Don't forget water and fire resistances.  That varies with each material too, right?  So a character dressed in relatively complete armor could easily have around 100 stats describing that armor, right?

Well, so what.  Computers are pretty good at that sort of thing.   And if some powergamer complains that he cannot figure out the best possible combination of things to wear vs. every attack type, he ain't getting much sympathy from me.

Fire and water resistance could easily be made binary (y/n), or fire resistence = crush damage resistence.
I would point out that FALLOUT had way more than 3 damage resistances!  Like 7 or 8! 


Quote from: zenbitz
Quote from: eleazar
One aspect which IMHO can clearly be done away with is "handedness".  What's the gameplay value in treating the right and left shoe/boot/glove/greave/etc as separate objects? I don't see any.  Let's make them all come in pairs and eliminate one superfluous stat.

Both the "single glove" and "piecemeal" armor rules - to me - are because of the post apocalyptic world setting.  In this kind of a setting, with little or no manufacturing,  protective equipment would be gleaned and improvised where possible.  This is also the  reason for the (otherwise superflourous) quality rating.    A well made pre-war artifact (say a military helmet) in good condition is going to be "better" than taking some old stock pot and hammering it out to fit your head.

This is ALSO the main reason for 35 hit locations!  I could certainly do "combat and injury" with 6-8 locations, but if some snowy wastland warrior wants to put a steel plate on his left shoulder (only) he should be able to do so, and have it matter.

Watch "The Road Warrior" (even Thunderdome, if you can stand it)  again - look at what they wear.  This is the kind of "armor" I am trying to represent (of course, with more fur since it's colder than the aussie outback).

I apologize for springing that clothing stuff on you guys.  It was in my head for a while, and while doing the inventory stuff I realized that the GUI for clothing is pretty much the same interface... so I just went ahead and made some definitions.

It's certainly easier from a programming perspective (at least MY programming perspective) to think of all the fiddly details that we may or may not need NOW, than decide we want them in 18 months!   It's much easier to go from 34 locations to 6 rather than vice-versa.
37  Development / Graphics / Re: Environment Sprites on: April 05, 2009, 12:21:48 AM
OK, this doesn't explain everything, but it's a start.

http://wiki.parpg.net/User:Eleazzaar/terrain

Please let me know about ambiguities and potential problems.
38  General Category / Off topic / Re: Favourite games? on: April 04, 2009, 06:00:44 PM
That's hard!

Microprose's Pirates!  (the original)
Alpha Centari
Deus Ex
Riven
Knights of the Old Republic
Civ IV


Yeah i know that's 6. Tongue

Didn't' include Baldur's Gate 2 because i played it first when it was pretty old, and the aging, and annoying UI and the excessively complex D&D rules make it too hard to really get into.  I've gotten as far as the underdark, on my second play-through but never beat it.

Fallout is maybe in my top 10 or 12.
39  Development / Graphics / Re: Environment Sprites on: April 04, 2009, 05:48:55 PM
OK, i'll do that.  Example graphics and diagrams.


this article lamoot linked to has all the basics.

But there are a few elaborations needed to allow graphics quality beyond the stylized look that works for console-anime-rpg style games, but doesn't work for us, which hopefully won't be too confusing.
40  Development / Mechanics / Re: PROPOSAL: Use-based skill system on: April 04, 2009, 05:20:27 PM
I've read the proposal before and it sounds cool. I wonder though, what about interdependent skills?

For example if you increase your long sword skill by 10 , then your short sword skill will increase by 5-7 and your axe skill will increase by 1-3. Since these have certain things in common.

zenbitz has been talking about a skill tree.  Axe and sword skills might be branches from the "melee weapon" skill.  So if you increase something lower down the tree, i think any branch that connects to it would be increased, for instance increasing strength, or the melee weapon skill would up your sword and axe skills.

With this system i don't think we need another way to increase multiple skills, it's kinda redundant.  So if you increased and end-branch skill that would represent focusing on that skill alone, it wouldn't increase another skill, since that can be accomplished another way.
41  Development / Programming / Re: Map classes on: April 04, 2009, 05:11:51 PM
I take it having real height would pose too many problems then (time + effort + motivation)?

My current take on this is that we start by building a 'flat' world; maybe we have a goal we multiple elevations but let's start with something that we can actually do.

Unless someone can show how this could be done relatively easily, i say we shove "elevation" to a back burner and focus on the challenges that we need to solve.  My mind boggles at trying to figure out the visual side of this. Most iso RPGs (including FO 1 and 2) didn't have anything other than "fake" elevation, so this clearly not in the "necessary" category.
42  Development / Mechanics / Re: PROPOSAL: Use-based skill system on: April 04, 2009, 01:52:01 AM
Probably because the most interesting (i.e. "controversial") parts are currently "constants here left undefined for tuning purposes".


Quote
Lastly, no matter how the detailed formula is crafted - it will probably still be exploitable by a determined player. To prevent this, we need to put a "cap" on the number of times a skill can be "used" (for the purposes of learning from it)

Maybe.

I would give simplicity the benefit of the doubt, and forget frequency caps, until the rest of the system is in place, and it is clear that we need some sort of cap.


Quote
We may wish to allow characters to "self study" i.e., without a teacher. This opens up numerous obvious loopholes for abuse, which then must be closed. However, it may be ultimately too restrictive. We also may wish to restrict teaching to NPCs not in the "party" (i.e, not under the Player's partial control) for similar reasons. In any case, studying without a teacher will result in a much reduced learning rate.

Obviously we don't want a teaching system that can turn a diverse party into a bunch of clones that share all the same skills.  However i think allowing party members to teach each other is allows for rather interesting interaction.  We might want to introduce a "teaching" skill, and/or base the effectiveness of teaching on stats like IQ and/or Charisma.  Or maybe "teacher" is just a perk-type advantage.

The speed and/or probability of success for teaching could also depend on the disparity of their skills  So while it may be rather easy for an master tracker to teach the basics, it would be notable more difficult for a only moderately skilled tracker to accomplish the same thing.


This is the way i see self-study, or intra-party teaching working:

On one of the character screens you can select a skill you want the character to learn.  You choose a book or a party member as a teacher.  A character can't be simultaneously learning and teaching... you have to choose.  Then you just leave it.  The characters are assumed to be learning that skill in their "free time" before sleeping, talking while walking etc.  After enough time has elapsed, you get a message telling weather the skill was learned or not.
43  Development / Programming / Re: Map classes on: April 04, 2009, 12:52:58 AM
The lower tile is raised by 0.1z units, the higher one by 0.4. The PC ignores this completely

So what you are saying is to FIFE, "hight" is nothing more than an offset used when drawing tiles?


But on the good side, we just to need to extend the graphic tile down to fill the gap  Smiley

That's all we need to do if we are creating some sort of Q-bert world of extruded squares. Wink

I'd love to see non-fake hight, but i believe really implementing it is far from trivial, especially in a natural-outdoor context.  The problem is a lot simpler if you just have buildings with floors at set intervals, and the occasional stairway.  Don't forget about the need to show objects and characters behind hills, cliffs, etc. even when some of your party is  on the hill and other members are behind it.
44  Development / Mechanics / Re: PROPOSAL: Encumbrance, Armor and Clothes on: April 04, 2009, 12:19:44 AM
EDIT:  C'mon!  Zenbitz, you edited 2 of my posts in this thread instead of replying.  Among other issues you have me saying all your quotes and visa versa.

GOD I AM SUCH AN IDIOT, SIGNED, ZENBITZ.  I EVEN MADE IT WORSE.


Quote from: eleazzaar
Why do we have strict limits on how big an object a person can carry by bulk? IMHO it would make more sense to have such a limit by weight, and not a hard limit, but one according to the character's strength (or similar stat).

Quote from: zenbitz
I actually don't think I meant that.  But we have bulk limits by containers, below.


Quote from: eleazzaar
"Properly Stored".  Basically what it comes down to is that you can put twice as much bulk in anywhere (other than the hands, or ready slot) than it's listed capacity.  What's the point?  Why tell the player he has a back-pack with a 300 bulk capacity, if he can actually put 600 bulk in it?

Quote from: zenbitz
I thought of this in passing as well.  I think the that conceptual problem I have with the obvious solution above is that it's so OBVIOUSLY easier to carry, say a rifle, or a sleeping bag, or other BULKY item  strapped to you or shoved in a sack than just grabbing it and carrying it.

The only game effect I can think of is that stuff in your ready slots that is not in a container is NOT halved.  But in the end, I think you are correct - and this can be dropped.  We might want to keep around an implicit factor between 1-2 to reduce the weight of real-world items when we carry them in the game.  I.,e I can look up that a Finnish RK62 weighs 4.2kg and is 0.9m long, but for the purposes of the game, we might reduce those (or equivalently, increase the capacity of items).


Quote from: eleazzaar
You want to limit containers by 3 factors?  Weight, total bulk, and a max item size.  Combine that with multiple containers, and the user will start to look wistfully at the old-fashioned tetris inventory.  Seriously, all we need is a bulk limit for each container.  Weight it accounted for by the encumbrance system.  A max item size limit per container is just annoying.
Quote from: zenbitz
Yeah, this is dumb isn't it?    We can modify to single bulk limit.
45  Development / Mechanics / Re: Inventory and Encumbrance on: April 03, 2009, 09:02:00 PM
...but perhaps I should post/wiki it first.

i think so.
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