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Development => Graphics => Topic started by: Q_x on November 17, 2009, 09:02:22 PM



Title: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 17, 2009, 09:02:22 PM
I was updating the tickets and it striked me that all items were described as renders by mvbarracuda. I've added the tags into names.

Do we have to model, texturize and render each inventory item? Really there is no possibility to have this things hand-drawn in game?

Any thoughts upon improving workflow? What pieces can 2d or 3d persons do for each other to improve workflow and have all things done faster and better?

Few pebbles to start with:

For things like bags, crates, boxes of any kind in general 2d person could make textures (any things to remember when doing it?)

For in-inventory render viewpoint can be lowered a lot

If there is such a huge demand for 3d job, I can learn some modelling.


Title: Re: Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 17, 2009, 09:26:36 PM
I personally think that the tech-demo inventory stuff should be painted just to make it easier on the modelers (who are very few at the moment).

So the modelers work on the scenery props and 2D guys take care of the inventory for now. Later on when the game is "playable" one could start replacing the old all-2D items with renders of them or when modelers tire and want to get their mind off all the barrels and crates and.. you should get my drift.

EDIT: though the map on-the-ground item images should be probably rendered. Fallout had this general 'box' image to indicate any item, til it got a prop


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 17, 2009, 09:41:31 PM
Should we wait until GUI will be closer to finish and the actual pixel size of items will be known? or stick to 200x200 (100x100?) and "we'll see later"?
It looks like the items will be very small. As far, as I'm half-on-half with the zoom size, I don't like the idea of having post-stamp size of in-inventory items :-/


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 17, 2009, 09:54:42 PM
Depends on what size you work on it. I usually go for something that's close to commercial norm (not too well versed in that) as in 250-300 pixels per inch and for the portraits 2000x2500 or larger canvas size.

For the in-game items... maybe keep the pxl/inch around what your comfortable with or how into detail you like to go and deem necessary, and hand them in as a minimum size of 500x500 pixels. That leaves room for resizing and/or cropping.

So I'd save the finished inv items as 500x500 pngs.

Any comments on this thought ?


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 17, 2009, 10:32:37 PM
Overkill for me. Will there be ever need of displaying such a huge thing? Pamphlet - ok.
Maybe if we would target a box edition...

And after rescaling it to 50x50 or even less in inventory - things may not be as readable as we wish, so there might be need to redraw it again carefully (and render things later and retouch afterwards for the third time).

Bloating the game may also be the factor.

However I would agree upon 500x500 items proposals (with 50x50 preview in the corner or sth like this).


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 17, 2009, 10:57:45 PM
500x500 should probably be max for inventory-slot items, though. They might be 50x50 or similar in the slots, but might be a bit larger when you pick them up and drag etc. Leave room for that, too

I work on the portraits on a canvas so large because I'm just comfortable with it.
Although the way I work doesn't really need it so big.
If there's a necessity to be using it as a larger image then I can just save it as such for use at the blog or elsewhere. So far I've been botching the first ones - I accidentally saved one of the images pretty low-res and lost a lot of data for another one and all the sizes vary, though they can all be cropped into probable in-game uses without any problems.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: shevegen on November 18, 2009, 02:36:06 PM
Quote
Should we wait until GUI will be closer to finish and the actual pixel size of items will be known?

Cant really comment on the resolution and GUI stuff, but waiting is a really bad idea as long as we dont have enough people contributing, especially in the modelling/artists section. Look at sirren, he kinda got burned out (hope he will be back again later).

Frankly, even if some don't like a specific resolution, it is a lot better than to see a project grind to halt.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Continuum on November 18, 2009, 03:20:11 PM
Suggestion: use some crappy placeholders (even some photos) for techdemo. Redirect 2d artist into designing GUI stuff (like portraits or any other more important things).

Inventory items done in 3d: good idea. They can be rendered at any size you want.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 18, 2009, 05:20:35 PM
Suggestion: use some crappy placeholders (even some photos) for techdemo. Redirect 2d artist into designing GUI stuff (like portraits or any other more important things).

Inventory items done in 3d: good idea. They can be rendered at any size you want.

word


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: zenbitz on November 18, 2009, 10:47:24 PM
Continuum is going to get drafted into management if he keeps making so much sense...  ;D


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 19, 2009, 09:23:36 AM
In fact I don't like the idea of making and using crap (in fact hand-drawing eg. good bottle in 500x500 will take much less time than setup a lights and camera, make a photo, upload it, cut it, shrink and retouch - and put all studio items back on its place after batch of such jobs will be finished, doing such foto is again way faster, than finding good CC-licensed bitmap on interwebz), while waiting for years until someone will model, render and provide something like 300 to 1000 items, argue with him to have in-inventory render with some specific POV or light set differently for things to be clearly visible within 50x50 resolution - and even best renders would have to be retouched in 2d anyway.

There could be used a kind of "default item pixmap" for me - some nice smiled badge for items without a proper face, at least when starting.

Gaspard - could you please assure me once again you have not made (or seen somewhere) any of items listed in trac tickets, as I think I've seen eg. meat hook somewhere... Sorry for repetitively stressing you - I have not much time for drawing until Monday so I want to have clarity of what have or have not been done when I will be ready for PARPG, rather than think "I must have seen this somewhere..." instead.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Continuum on November 19, 2009, 09:45:54 AM
Continuum is going to get drafted into management if he keeps making so much sense...  ;D
Yeah, I like to terrorize workers!

argue with him to have in-inventory render with some specific POV or light set differently for things to be clearly visible within 50x50 resolution - and even best renders would have to be retouched in 2d anyway.
Why specific POV? Been doing inventory stuff and you must pick the best POV for particular model. The same for lights and FOV. Inventory stuff is totally different than in-game objects (aka tiles/walls/scenery/critters/etc.). I do know what I'm talking about obviously.

Anyway, what's the (more or less) size of inventory slot now? I'm doing 3d potatoes!

(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7814/wtfan.png)


--------------------------EDIT

Ohh, and that license(s) thingy is a real utter shite. It's one of the reason I'll not jump on ANY serious work here.



--------------------------EDIT2


Ohh, I forgot. Of course after techdemo you need to decide how inventory items (including all weaponry, armours, etc.) will be done (2d or 3d) to keep things consistent. For now (as I already said) use some crappy placeholders, to not waste a time for things which may be useless (or replaced) later.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 19, 2009, 12:54:31 PM
While we appreciate your contributions Continuum, you seem to have an attitude to upset people. Saying that something is shit doesn't really help anyone. We know that licenses tend to be a very complicated, tiresome and not rewarding topic. We've discussed which license to go for in the past and everyone was okay with CC 3.0 BY-SA. Now suddenly coming up and saying our license is shit doesn't help anyone, it's rather frustrating for me and prolly for a couple of others as well.

This said: I've already pointed out that you can use non-commercial textures for PARPG. But we'll have to point out where these textures are coming from and clarify in a LICENSE file that these specific assets are not released under CC 3.0 BY-SA but CC 3.0 BY-SA-NC. Hopefully we can replace NC assets with assets that permit commercial usage in the long run. Right now it feels more important to get some content into the game than strictly going down the BY-SA route.

Furthermore check out http://www.burningwell.org/gallery2/v/textures/

There are a bunch of useful textures there that are compatible with CC 3.0 BY-SA!


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 19, 2009, 01:04:43 PM
Continuum - As far, as I agree upon zoom/tile size with you, I disagree here with items.
Look at all the major games of the fallout-like genre - you have all or almost all in-inventory graphics polished or made in 2d soft - it is simply faster and better to do it that way than fiddling with render for hours. Nice to have 3d render as a reference or even better as a starting point.
Consistent work isn't priority in this case IMO, I think readability is much more important with small bitmaps, than keeping light or POV in the same place, in the end potatoes and rocks or crowbar and pipe will start somehow look similar.

And with all this unknown things - this is why we agreed upon 500x500 overkill size.

Upon frustration and "not helping conclusions" - I have rule of thumb not to see such things unless they won't fit under. This one is too big :/

Barra - basically this is why I license all unrelated private things I publish (blog text, artwork, photos) under WTFPL so its compatible with any license, as you can rerelease it under any conditions.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: shevegen on November 19, 2009, 01:13:38 PM
Quote
that license(s) thingy is a real utter shite.

Come on man, such a comment isn't helping. I can understand frustration but it really seems bad to throw in too many complaints right now into one post.
You started with resolution, then placeholder, then went on to license stuff... honestly, this just leads to frustration. Things don't change quickly, let's calm down and work on them one after the other.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 19, 2009, 02:29:41 PM
Gaspard - could you please assure me once again you have not made (or seen somewhere) any of items listed in trac tickets, as I think I've seen eg. meat hook somewhere... Sorry for repetitively stressing you - I have not much time for drawing until Monday so I want to have clarity of what have or have not been done when I will be ready for PARPG, rather than think "I must have seen this somewhere..." instead.

OK, here you go, this is what JustinOperable has done so far:

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/justinoperable_items.png)

I must say the potato on the Instant Taters box looks better :P
And Continuum's 3D ones are potatoes too


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Q_x on November 19, 2009, 02:33:13 PM
thanks!


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 19, 2009, 02:41:54 PM
Anyway, what's the (more or less) size of inventory slot now? I'm doing 3d potatoes!

(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7814/wtfan.png)

Neatso potatoes, could you post a larger version of those, something like 300x300 ?


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Continuum on November 19, 2009, 03:07:22 PM
@ me doing you upset

It was my response to what Q_x said in his post:

(in fact hand-drawing eg. good bottle in 500x500 will take much less time than setup a lights and camera, make a photo, upload it, cut it, shrink and retouch - and put all studio items back on its place after batch of such jobs will be finished, doing such foto is again way faster, than finding good CC-licensed bitmap on interwebz)

And I added why I'm not going to be involved into more serious things here. What's wrong with that? As for the words I'm using - it's my normal way of posting.

You started with resolution, then placeholder, then went on to license stuff...
Jesus Christ. Posting suggestions, or ideas isn't allowed here? Or maybe I must use some time period between them?

Where I said you MUST change something immediately, or change something because I want, or do something because I say so? Show me where I did it.

@ resolution

normal discussion about design aspect. What's wrong with that?

@ placeholders for inventory items in techdemo

suggestion to use placeholders there, if you not decided (before its release) what route you'll choose (2d or 3d, size, etc.), and move to other things which are "known" now. What's wrong with that?

@ license stuff

read above.

But from now I'll shut up. Thanks for listening.


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: Gaspard on November 19, 2009, 04:30:45 PM
Dude, chill.
You haven't been posting much at the forums before, Continuum, just an image here and there and minor comments. People here don't know you too yet and might get offended. Give everybody some time. Most of the raunchier talk goes on the IRC.

Your input is very much appreciated, but we won't get anywhere if all the sides take things into heart that easily. Right now it was a series of misunderstandings, have some patience, man. You want stuff to move faster ? Log on to PARPG IRC channel.

As a side note, if it isn't too much trouble then would you mind posting a larger image of the potatoes' render ?


Title: Re: [Discussion] Inventory Items and how to do it
Post by: shevegen on November 29, 2009, 12:49:28 AM
There is nothing wrong with changing stuff, Continuum, but if you are going to put everything into one post how easy is it to answer?

I never said you are not "allowed" to do it. Do as you please.

But seriously, how would you expect people to solve all problems quickly in
one go if you use a snide remark such as
Quote
that license(s) thingy is a real utter shite
?

Bundling it together into one post isn't helping.

And if you can not accept criticism, how would you expect others to accept criticism, please?

Debundle complaints, this makes it easier for others to address them.