Post-Apocalyptic RPG forums

Development => Graphics => Topic started by: shevegen on October 23, 2009, 08:59:07 PM



Title: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on October 23, 2009, 08:59:07 PM
I am doing this here, because I want to tackle one thing at a time. And the woodpile seems to be a bit difficult ...

Before I start, you can add as much snow as you want, so if you think that some areas are too difficult, just toss in some snow on them.

What we need is wood, wood, wood. Trees trees trees... logs, beams... small parts of trees, sticks, branches...
This will be needed for techdemo I but I think we will have a LOT of good use of wood lateron. Wood will be immensely important (it already is), even more so in a post apocalyptic setting where ice makes obtaining wood a lot harder.
And you can burn wood... or build something with it... Wood rocks.

Before I continue, anyway, have a look at some pictures.
My favourite one is this here because it captures how a wood pile might look in total:

Quote
http://www.blog.hobofarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/wood-pile.jpg

If you want add some snow mentally to that. Zenbitz found these btw.

The next one is nice because it shows you that someone ordered them.
(http://www.blog.hobofarm.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/wood-pile.jpg)


Now let me paste what zenbitz wrote:

<zenbitz_working_> in general, I think there should be "done" piles (small med large wood)
<zenbitz_working_> and then a "working" area where the bigger, raw stuff is brought in and
<zenbitz_working_> chopped up by the chopper guy.


But basically, I think, EVERYTHING that is related to wood, trees and such, will be important.

That includes textures. Feel free to add in your stuff or ideas, i will be googling a bit more
for textures hehe...

It would be really cool if we could get a lot of trees and woods and beams, and remember
if something is difficult, put snow on it :D


Title: Re: REQUEST - Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Gaspard on November 15, 2009, 06:41:49 PM
Okay, I drew some quick ideas for the modelers. Some stacked raw material and maybe a few different stacks of already chopped fire-ready wood and a stump on which you chop the wood. I added the axe to indicate that. Maybe two versions, one with the axe, and when player removes it - one without the axe :) I roughly indicated the area these props would vacate with the lighter blue.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: zenbitz on November 16, 2009, 06:57:28 AM
I think the KEY thing to remember (I think this is above) is that this is A LOT of wood.
Most of an entire underground parking lot filled with a giant woodpile.  Wood is what runs the whole settlement.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 16, 2009, 10:12:49 AM
Looks cool to me Gaspard, I like the isometric concept art approach :-)


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Q_x on November 16, 2009, 10:35:53 AM
Well may whole design turn this way?
I know - we have to keep PA climate, rust and decay must be everywhere, but what do you feel about using non-manga cartoons here? Treat it just as a mind game, not a serious proposition.
When things would be kept in dirty grayish bleached color palette (as discussed lastly), this thing can be visually attractive as well.
I mean I know this is bad idea, how bad is it, and just how do you think about it? How about not beeing falloutish, arcanumish, how about working faster, doing some genuine graphics that hav'nt been done in such kind of game yet?
Seems to be viral to me, interesting enough, thats all.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 25, 2009, 09:35:37 AM
I could crank out some wood piles. From logs, to planks, to beams etc. Whatever you guys need/want.

 I can also work out a chopping stump and axe and some tree stumps if ya'll want. I could model these things out in Maya and texture them in Photoshop.  I'm still trying to figure out Blender... (hurg X.x)


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: xbogx on November 25, 2009, 01:11:30 PM
Well may whole design turn this way?
I know - we have to keep PA climate, rust and decay must be everywhere, but what do you feel about using non-manga cartoons here? Treat it just as a mind game, not a serious proposition.
When things would be kept in dirty grayish bleached color palette (as discussed lastly), this thing can be visually attractive as well.
I mean I know this is bad idea, how bad is it, and just how do you think about it? How about not beeing falloutish, arcanumish, how about working faster, doing some genuine graphics that hav'nt been done in such kind of game yet?
Seems to be viral to me, interesting enough, thats all.

have you seen these? http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=826
I'd love to play a game with graphics like that. It would probably work with prerendered character sprites..


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on November 25, 2009, 02:14:41 PM
Hey BrandonJenkins I guess anything you can bring up with wood would help a lot.

Log or piles are most important i guess. Chopping stumps could be used on the outer area of the map (inside the mall area it would not make much sense to have chopping stumps hehe)


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 25, 2009, 10:37:27 PM
Hey BrandonJenkins I guess anything you can bring up with wood would help a lot.

Log or piles are most important i guess. Chopping stumps could be used on the outer area of the map (inside the mall area it would not make much sense to have chopping stumps hehe)


Sounds good to me. I'm currently uploading a ton of assets into the Unity game I'm working on, but I'll have free time tonight and tomorrow to start working on them.

What are the specs for the logs/wood piles? Poly count? Texture budget? I can work really low specs and really high specs, so either way.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 25, 2009, 10:43:09 PM
Whatever works right for you Brandon. The game will use the rendered version of the models so polycount does not matter from this perspective (besides the obvious increased rendering time drawback). Not sure what the other artists are using terms of texture width, any idea?


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 01:17:23 AM
Whatever works right for you Brandon. The game will use the rendered version of the models so polycount does not matter from this perspective (besides the obvious increased rendering time drawback). Not sure what the other artists are using terms of texture width, any idea?

When you say render versions, do you want me to render the images out in Maya? Or is that what Blender does?


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 26, 2009, 01:20:09 AM
Whatever texture size you can find/put together..
I googled for wood/bark textures before you (Brandon) chose to undertake this task and I'm not impressed about the quantity/quality of the stuff suitable for our license. Anyway, for me 512x512 is a kind of base size.

EDIT:
You can render everything in Maya, provided you can replicate the blender lighting setup (I.E. number of lights, orientation and strength).


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 04:47:10 AM
Whatever texture size you can find/put together..
I googled for wood/bark textures before you (Brandon) chose to undertake this task and I'm not impressed about the quantity/quality of the stuff suitable for our license. Anyway, for me 512x512 is a kind of base size.

EDIT:
You can render everything in Maya, provided you can replicate the blender lighting setup (I.E. number of lights, orientation and strength).

I use CG textures as the base for all my photo-referencing. I then hand paint and stylize everything to suit the needs of the project. It shouldn't be too hard for me to crank out some wood textures in PS either using Render >Fibers> Liquify.  Things like that.

For lighting in the renders, do you guys want a basic 3 point lights set up to get an overall balanced render of the object? Or a basic AO pass? Is the engine doing the final rendering, or do the objects need to be pre-lit?

Sorry I'm asking so many questions. I'm just new to the group and I want to actually help, and not be a hindrance to the project.



Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 26, 2009, 10:13:10 AM
You have to use a pre-built lighting setup. Either treee point lighting or two lights and Ambient occlusion (That's what I use). In short the engine needs fully pre-rendered sprites.
I'd like to use cgtextures pics, but this site license does not fit with this game's one..


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 10:34:30 AM
You have to use a pre-built lighting setup. Either treee point lighting or two lights and Ambient occlusion (That's what I use). In short the engine needs fully pre-rendered sprites.
I'd like to use cgtextures pics, but this site license does not fit with this game's one..

Oh? I thought if you edited the image enough so that it's not a blatant copy paste scenario it would fly...If not then I can find other resources.

Would vetertex lighting and bake lights work for pre lit? I can still render it out just the same.

Also, I've started work on a basic pile of 6 logs. I modeled it and uv'd it in about a half an hour. The texture I threw on just as the basic first layer in about 20 minutes.

Tri Poly count is 960 ( figured I'd go kinda high for nice shape) and the Texture map is a single 512. Keep in mind this is a direct phtosource, so it looks really hokey as a texture right now.

(http://).....how do I load images? lol


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Q_x on November 26, 2009, 11:44:28 AM
1. Add to Imageshack and copy given link here.
2. If the image is under 128 kB - click on "additional options" under text box and attach it there.
3. In Wiki there is special page for uploading stuff (usually in the menu on the left side).
4. In trac you just attach file - just remember to change your name when doing so. There is a limit of 6 files/hour.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 12:11:15 PM
1. Add to Imageshack and copy given link here.
2. If the image is under 128 kB - click on "additional options" under text box and attach it there.
3. In Wiki there is special page for uploading stuff (usually in the menu on the left side).
4. In trac you just attach file - just remember to change your name when doing so. There is a limit of 6 files/hour.

Sweet. before I hoist the whole thing up the Wiki, take a look at it and let me know what you think. the first image is a simple screenshot of the base texture with no editing.

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/7415/woodscreenshot.jpg)

This is the wood pile after a lot of editing. Free grunge maps I found online and a lot of Photoshop filters and renders. This is also a screenshot. There are no lights in either scene to get an accurate look at the texture.

(http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/4356/woodscreenshot2.jpg)

Lemme know what ya think.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 26, 2009, 12:45:50 PM
Thumbs up for your first version 8)
If you want to add some dirt please feel free to do so, but I prefere the first one nonetheless.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 09:48:53 PM
Thumbs up for your first version 8)
If you want to add some dirt please feel free to do so, but I prefere the first one nonetheless.

Alright. I'll tone down the grunge maps a bit. (I save out all my PSDs so that should only take a couple mins) and re-post it here before I render it.

You mentioned a specific 3 point or 2 point/AO pass lighting setup. Is there an example I could reference?

*edited post*

I just finished editing  the log pile. It's still an unlit screenshot of Maya's viewport. When I render, should I use Normal/Spec maps at all? Lemme know what ya'll think.

(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2056/woodscreenshot3.jpg)


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Q_x on November 26, 2009, 10:40:55 PM
Is it easy to make bump-map out of the same texture it is used as a bark (I dunno, only made few bare low-polys in my whole life)? If yes - how about it, just to make things little bit coarse without much work?

I'm also yes-yes for the first pile, the second is textured much to uniformly brown, as if it was mahogany.



Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 26, 2009, 10:51:37 PM
Is it easy to make bump-map out of the same texture it is used as a bark (I dunno, only made few bare low-polys in my whole life)? If yes - how about it, just to make things little bit coarse without much work?

I'm also yes-yes for the first pile, the second is textured much to uniformly brown, as if it was mahogany.



I use a program called CrazyBump, which can rock out Normal, Specular, and AO maps in seconds. Literally. I can crank out 3 maps and edit them to look good in roughly 5 minutes.

The very first log pile I posted is literally a CGTexrtures texture slapped on with no editing what so ever. Should we still go with it? or should I re-do it?


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 26, 2009, 11:48:40 PM
First of all please take a look at this:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Graphics:Workflow#Rendering_setup
That's a wiki page explaining the game rendering setup. After that please try to render your logs at game size and see what the result looks like. After that you'll decide if bump/normal mapping are in order.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 27, 2009, 12:02:54 AM
First of all please take a look at this:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Graphics:Workflow#Rendering_setup
That's a wiki page explaining the game rendering setup. After that please try to render your logs at game size and see what the result looks like. After that you'll decide if bump/normal mapping are in order.

Alrighty. I'll plug in these settings and get rendering soon. Thanksgiving at my house begins shortly, so the renders may show up late tomorrow.

Which version do you want me to light and render? The very first one I posted or the latest one I posted?

Thanks!


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 27, 2009, 12:29:43 AM
I'd say try all the three versions you have. The last you posted is my favourite, but some variations will come handy.
In the meantime have a good Thanksgiving day all you from the States.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on November 27, 2009, 01:07:53 AM
Yeah have a good thanksgiving day! Zenbitz has some holiday time with family too as far as I know

From the 3 pics I think the last one is the best, then the first one. The middle one is a bit too dark for my taste, I can not make enough details

Btw I love that the logs don't look perfect! Some look as if someone chopped into them.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 27, 2009, 07:33:09 AM
Alrighty. I'll light and render the latest version ( pile C) and the first version (pile A) and see what you all think. I'm wiped out tonight, so I'll probably get to it tomorrow.

Hope all of you had a great holiday.



Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Q_x on November 27, 2009, 08:29:37 AM
CGTextures licensing seems to be not compatible with our licensing (CC-BY-SA 3) - it disallows commercial usage. I may be wrong.

Amount of licensing issues v. other issues is really funny in FLOSS things. That is not the way it should go, but there is no other way - as long, as Disney's money will be more important than whole world's culture.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 27, 2009, 12:51:10 PM
As noted in the license thread, the situation is: we try to use as few assets that are released under non-commercial terms as possible. CGtextures are released under NC terms so that means we should try to avoid them.

This said: assets that are released under NC terms are better than having no assets at all. If finding good textures is what slows us down, I prefer to rather ship our first release with NC content than to ship it with really few content that all permits commercial usage. I'll cover the topic in our next blog update at Monday.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 27, 2009, 03:19:48 PM
The woodpile has now its own ticket at trac:
http://parpg-trac.cvsdude.com/parpg/ticket/216


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Q_x on November 27, 2009, 04:01:16 PM
You'll find free textures repositories with commercial usage allowed in http://wiki.parpg.net/Graphics:Free_assets.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on November 27, 2009, 06:33:32 PM
After googling for some wooden textures I changed my mind :-)

The first version seems to look most realistic hehe. But I guess it depends on the type of wood as well. I had a look at wood used for guns, and this wood is usually a lot darker (look at pictures of AK47 for instance)

Btw many US guys really seem to have an extended holiday time right now. Threads in other games or such refer to this hehe.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 27, 2009, 10:32:19 PM
Alrighty. In that case I need to re-do the texture. I'll try and find some good textures using that link you posted Q_x. Or if all else fails, I have a camera...I could always MAKE some wood textures :D

I'll get on it as soon as I can. I'm also working on a ZBrush (that program -is- the devil, I swear) project right now. And finals for all my classes are in 2 weeks. So time to work on this may dwindle a little in the next couple weeks, but after that I have 3 weeks off for the holidays (yay!) where I can get a lot of work done.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 28, 2009, 02:10:17 AM
Hey, when I finish this thing up, how do I import it into Blender? I exported the scene from Maya as an .OBJ file, and then tried to import it into Blender. I found the import section...but it doesn't seem to want to import the stuff.

Pleeaaese...haalp...


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on November 28, 2009, 02:23:28 AM
Do you have python installed?

I asked on IRC; one reply was:

Quote
amphi_> there should be an import script for .obj format

Also look at this webpage:

http://www.euclideanspace.com/threed/threedsoftware/blender/character/obj/index.htm

You can download a small .py script. Although, blender should come with a python script that works hmm... what version do you use?

If you want you can upload that file somewhere (like at rapidshare), I can try to load that into blender.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 28, 2009, 11:30:54 AM
I did get Python from the latest version of Blender that their website had. 2.6 or something like that?


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 28, 2009, 12:35:46 PM
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=91&t=829533
From CGTalk.. You should try to either get a Blender older version or try to render your stuff in Maya. Blender developement's quick, but I don't know when they'll get out the alpha stage..


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: shevegen on November 28, 2009, 05:48:45 PM
Bit chaotic if an older version works better than a later version...  :o


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: mvBarracuda on November 28, 2009, 06:50:45 PM
Alphas are alphas for a reason. Not that surprising to see certain functionality broken in an alpha release to be honest.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: Sirren on November 28, 2009, 07:01:35 PM
Not to mention you could probably try a different format than .obj. If I'm not mistaken Blender can import Max/Maya native formats.


Title: Re: [REQUEST] [3D] Pile of Wood - Part of Techdemo I 2009
Post by: BrandonJenkins on November 28, 2009, 10:38:37 PM
Both formats? MA and MB?

I'll try setting up some lights and cameras in Maya and rendering it out. I'll post it up soon.