Post-Apocalyptic RPG forums

Development => Graphics => Topic started by: Border on August 18, 2009, 04:31:20 AM



Title: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Border on August 18, 2009, 04:31:20 AM
Ok so as i say before my vacation. i will try to tackle the HUD and maybe some menu.
So here some scribble of my idea from the info i found on the Wiki. I admit its still very inintelligible but i'll work it out. :D
(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/507889/PhotoWEB/PARPG/HUDConcept01.jpg)

The start my friend, very fallout-ish ATM but its personnality will become has i sculpt it.
So basic stuff, text box for game info. Character info, weapon use and too much empty space to fill.
I will add the AP,AC,temp and such as with inventory access.
 
(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/507889/PhotoWEB/PARPG/WIP_HUD_01.jpg)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 19, 2009, 03:38:52 AM
Update. ugly but update still...
i'm really not convince myself but its more to force my brain to work that anything else.
(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/507889/PhotoWEB/PARPG/WIP_HUD_02.jpg)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: mvBarracuda on August 19, 2009, 11:14:18 AM
I think it's a good start Border :-) Game GUIs usually went through several iterations before a game gets finally released and obviously you need to start designing a GUI at some point, simply to have a starting point for future iterations and to receive feedback. Good work.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: monkeyface on August 19, 2009, 07:37:39 PM
Yes, looking good. I'll try to give some more insightful comments soon, as well as my own ideas perhaps.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: mvBarracuda on August 20, 2009, 10:21:56 PM
It turned out at IRC that shevegen thought that "HUD" would be the name of the starting location of PARPG. That's why he commented on the map design instead of the heads up display.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: shevegen on August 20, 2009, 11:11:00 PM
Edit: I removed the earlier message and started another thread here http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=421.0 (http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=421.0) as it did not fit to the HUD thread here.

Now for the HUD, I do have some questions or want to point at a few things:

- How or where can the player access skills?
- What is the bar to the very left with the 85 green bar?
- How should buttons be viewed? Right now some buttons have different size (i.e. the menu button opens another menu, where the buttons each have a different width, at least for that menu I think the same width would be better)

Possibly for later:
- Will we see coldness effects, and will the player see it? Like frozen toes or hands. For example, in Fallout, i think you could see radiation damage partially (i am not sure now, but i think that sixth toe on one feet could be seen at any time... hmm or do i misremember now)

Also, the interface feels as if it could easily fit to any other RPG. Could we, or do we want, to add something more akin to PARPG setting?
Perhaps some small icon.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 21, 2009, 03:07:28 AM
Quote
- How or where can the player access skills?
i will need to add a character button. Where? i dunno yet :D maybe close to the portrait. Maybe by clicking the portrait? might save space
Quote
- What is the bar to the very left with the 85 green bar?
Health bar. Right now there only one picture but since i remember there suppose to be party i thought it migh be interesting to have all your party health visible a la Fallout Tactic.

Quote
- How should buttons be viewed? Right now some buttons have different size (i.e. the menu button opens another menu, where the buttons each have a different width, at least for that menu I think the same width would be better)
you're absolutely right. I was just lazy when i came to this and don't forget the VERY-WIP status for the HUD. Right now its closer to a brainstorm then and usable HUD :D

Quote
Will we see coldness effects,
I guess this could be seen with the Thermometer ( the red/blue bar) Or by the character menu.
http://wiki.parpg.net/Image:Eleazzaar_invgui_idea.jpg (http://wiki.parpg.net/Image:Eleazzaar_invgui_idea.jpg)
But you could see a snowflake icon over the member tht suffer from frostbite. plus the minus of agility or whatever happen when you get your toes frosted. Move slower? or with frosted  finger you lose some dexterity... like in reality. ;)


Thanks for your input.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on August 21, 2009, 07:21:37 PM
I have to admit.... it did not occur to me that the health system that I have been working on http://wiki.parpg.net/Zenbitz:Thoughts_on_wounding does not lend itself well to a compact graphical depiction of a characters' "health". 

What do people think about a small "humanoid" icon (maybe somewhere in size between the compass and "green robot guy" in your HUD mockup) where you could deliniate arms/legs/head/chest/abdomen.  Maybe upper & lower arms/legs.  The body parts would change color as they got wounded (green-yellow-red + black for "gone").  (Technically, the working model has about 35 hit locations, but this is mostly for customizing your armor to look cool, there is not much difference in effect from "wounded in left forarm" and "wounded in left elbow".  That model is here: http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Encumbrance_Armor_Clothes if you are wondering)

Actually, this is apparently the next area I need to work on - health and damage from combat, etc.  I needed to draft out the stats and stuff first but that's done.





Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 21, 2009, 07:50:57 PM
a small humanoid like in Deus Ex? it might do the trick
Top left corner
(http://necromanthus.com/Images/DXR.jpg)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 22, 2009, 04:37:32 AM
New try. Not much difference on the disposition. i start with a 3d rendered frame.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/507889/PhotoWEB/PARPG/WIP_HUD_03.jpg)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on August 22, 2009, 12:04:21 PM
I like it, but I think the various colours of bars and text and everything could be less saturated, like the green health bar, cyan text and the red-to-blue temp(?) bar - they catch too much attention.
I think the HUD should provide info and look interesting (which it does right now  ;D), but also not distract from the game window. As we have lotsa snow, then white text on some dark gray maybe, health bar less saturated and the temp one doesn't have to have so much colour, maybe just a tonal differentiation of a cool (almost blue) gray.
Perhaps you could even complement the whole thing with some bronze frames, like around the weapon icon and buttons and the screen, as the whole thing is very green-gray already.

Good work so far


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 22, 2009, 02:21:08 PM
Quote
but also not distract from the game window.
its pretty hard to be distact right now since there nothing interesting in the game window ATM. :)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on August 22, 2009, 02:48:18 PM
I know I know, but still  ;)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: shevegen on August 22, 2009, 07:10:39 PM
What about a possibility for weather effects - a small circle with either sunshine or a small cloud with snow and so on... if mouse hovers over it, the player would get info about the temperature, i.e. if the condition is very harsh right now or not


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on August 22, 2009, 10:22:08 PM
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/WIP_HUD_03-2.jpg)

Here, hope you don't mind. I toned most of the colours down, rearranged some of the things for a better composition (?) and mainly the feedback window to a more central position, as the portrait is not of the greatest importance.

I guess you can see the note to add a means to scroll the feedback window :P

EDIT:

The weather info would be nice and useful, btw, yeah.

A Deus-Ex-y 'humanoid' icon looks pretty decent, there you could also show a numerical overall health % that just roughly adds up all the damage the character has endured to all and any body parts and subtracts it from 100%


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on August 24, 2009, 10:47:54 PM
I have fleshed out (heh) a Mechanics proposal for health and wounding:

http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=425.0 is the discussion topic
http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Health_and_Damage is the direct link to the wiki page.

I like the little Deus Ex guy - I would use something simple like Green/Yellow/Red/Black to indicate the various wound levels (strictly speaking that's not enough...
but:
Green: Healthy
Yellow: Minor wound
Red: Useless part (or worse)
Black: Severed/Dead

Obviously, if you are out cold, it doesn't really matter what color the little icon is...


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Border on August 25, 2009, 01:19:51 PM
i would suggest not to go to detail for the HUD , let just go for color and use the inventory to add info on the body wound with percentage.
Or maybe you can have a bigger humanoid image in the Character menu with clearer info with percentage and the rest (frostbite etc)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on August 25, 2009, 03:33:50 PM
I guess then we should also decide what we're going to merge with what or keep all windows separate. Will the Character screen and Inventory screen be one piece or separate ? Same thing for Dialogue and Barter/Trade and Inventory vs Looting containers (and corpses)...


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: shevegen on September 16, 2009, 11:00:26 PM
Do we have any update on the HUD?
About the question of keeping things separate, I think it is easier to answer with draft sketches :D


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on October 26, 2009, 03:33:05 PM
okay people, your input is needed with this topic

check this out: http://wiki.parpg.net/Graphics:GUI_Design (http://wiki.parpg.net/Graphics:GUI_Design)
there's a lot of material, pictures from other games GUIs too.

and go over border's sketches in this topic, too



what are your thought's on the GUI/HUD ? feedback feedback feedback !


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: shevegen on October 26, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
I think different people value different stuff... uh... differently.

For example, I usually love to have many options available as part of a HUD (inventory compass etc..)

Anyone remembers Commandos, the game? That had quite a cool HUD.

But for PARPG, i think we should initially keep it really simple and primitive, and then when that works we could add stuff

About your compass idea, at least if i see the HUD right - such a compass should only appear if a char has a compass in his inventory. Come to think about it... I believe we could value coldness effects.

For example, if your character feels awfully cold, parts of the HUD could appear under a white layer of ice, and the player could not click on it for instance until he finds a warmer place again and has time to rest there. (Just one idea...)

http://wiki.parpg.net/File:Grd_GUI_idea2.jpg

Also, I loved the original Fallout stat creation system, with the smiling pipboy... we could have a smaller snowman smiling and model it a bit similar to it. But I have no problem at all if this appears in another way. I.e. Eleazzaar's proposal is as equally fine.

Btw I am surprised that Commandos 2 had so much snow... I guess I have to play it again one day hehe

Their HUD seems a bit minimal though....

Anyway, what I want to say is that we should rather aim for a minimal HUD initially, and extend it lateron.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on October 26, 2009, 05:58:23 PM
01. Here's the main HUD concept
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDmain.png)

02. Here's dialogue screen. top right portrait is NPCs and lower left is PCs
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDdialogue.png)

03.this is trading/looting/stealing screen
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDtradelootsteal.png)

04.character sheet with stats and skills and resistances etc WITH the inventory that has the characters paper doll
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDchersheetandinv.png)

05. this is the notebook where you can read your notes, rumors, check out your quests and kills etc
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDnotesquests.png)

06.this is the local map view
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDmap.png)

07.and this is world map travel view
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/HUDworldmap.png)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on October 26, 2009, 07:51:20 PM
Oh and that darker gray horizontal panel in the top left side between the MAP and REST/WAIT buttons should have the daylight/nightime graph. It shows whether it's day or night, morning or noon etc


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on October 26, 2009, 10:09:47 PM
good start.   Current "plans" give the player three "damage tracks" (akin to health or hit points) - "Damage" "Exhaustion" and "Stress".

I am still looking for a better way to state "the inverse of health" than "physical body damage"... corporal punishment?

It seems like it should be inverted so that all 3 go in the same "direction" (i.,e increased stress or increased exhaustion == increased damage)

we could invert all of them but I like "stress".  

Further discussions to mechanics forum, please...

EDIT: Gaspard did me the favor of looking up the thread and cross posting... it's here: http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=425.0


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on October 27, 2009, 12:02:09 AM
Other than temperature... does the HUD need to represent other "weather" or environmental effects?

Some this (rain, snow, etc.) can just be shown directly (particle effects?)
I imagine that (at least when out in the wilderness) PC needs to know when a storm is coming, etc.  Maybe a little forecast bar (I am guess on the world map interface, rather than main one)

(http://wiki.parpg.net/images/thumb/d/df/Weather.png/251px-Weather.png)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on October 27, 2009, 12:50:39 AM
the weather icons could be added to the World Map travel screen. to the empty right side panel for example.
But that information or it's avavilability could also be triggered by a skill, survival for example.

so if you've got low survival or wilderness or whatever then you don't get that information on the map (like on a weather forecast map on television), but might get it with high enough skill or with a special trait or if an old wise geezer teaches you how to look at the weather signs. Hm.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on October 27, 2009, 05:51:48 AM
Oh, should have mentioned that.

Yes, your ability to predict the weather will depend on your skills - either "sky reading" (default: wilderness survival)  or some more high-tech version ("meteorology") which may require tools or equipment or something...



Title: Re: HUD
Post by: eleazzaar on October 29, 2009, 06:14:14 PM
I know i've been away for a while, and probably don't have time to really get involved again.  But it's hard to resist a GUI discussion, and maybe i can help move this along.

Some Preliminary Questions:

* Has the idea of having a party been abandoned?  None of these GUIs support multiple characters.  A good GUI for a party is very different from a single player game GUI.  Even if you don't directly control them, you'll want to know some of your companion(s) stats and status

* Why do we need a compass?  Can you actually rotate the viewpoint?


Comments:

* I'd encourage everyone to not get caught up yet in the "style" of the GUI. At this point it's mostly a distraction. First you need to figure out what information you need to display, and how to display it.  Once that is done, or mostly done, then you are in a good place to design a "skin" for the GUI.  Gaspard's concepts above have the right kind of idea.

* I wouldn't make a "skill" button for using skills, but instead bring up a contextual menu when you click on an object.  For skills that have no object (if any), click on the player's character.

* I found the little text box crammed into the side of fallout's hud inadequate and annoying.  And if Zenbits has his way our calculations won't be nearly that simple.  We need more room for it.  I'd put that text readout in it's own box that can be resized, and it can be turned off when not wanted.

* I believe you need some sort of "humanoid" icon (at least for the selected character) to show what is damaged if that is indeed significant to gameplay.  However, having 35 hit locations that don't really matter seems excessive.  IMHO hit locations should be reduced to a number that really matter to the player, and can practically be displayed to the player.
You also probably need a more linear way to see how close to dead a character is.

* Just because a rule makes sense written out in text doesn't mean it can be conveyed to the player sensibly via a GUI.

* Temperature bar should probably look like an actual thermometer, i.e. not a red-blue gradient, but a red line (or silver) that stops at the level temperature.

* Character and Inventory screens should be separate, unless there is some compelling reason they need to be visible at once.  I think there will be too much info to fit at once anyway.

* I don't see a need for a window navigation between "trade, loot, sell, steal, gamble".  These actions will be rarely available from the same object, i.e. if you click on a box or a corpse, you can only loot.   "Trade" and "Sell" should probably be the same interface, i don't see a reason to distinguish them.  This and especially gamble could be accessed via dialog.  "Steal" is should probably be an action you initiate against a person.  


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: Gaspard on October 29, 2009, 06:38:47 PM
I know i've been away for a while, and probably don't have time to really get involved again.  But it's hard to resist a GUI discussion, and maybe i can help move this along.

Some Preliminary Questions:

* Has the idea of having a party been abandoned?  None of these GUIs support multiple characters.  A good GUI for a party is very different from a single player game GUI.  Even if you don't directly control them, you'll want to know some of your companion(s) stats and status
there was something bugging me the whole time I was thinking about the layouts and what should be visible at all times. And now I remembered - the party members or temporary followers...

Quote from: eleazzaar
* I found the little text box crammed into the side of fallout's hud inadequate and annoying.  And if Zenbits has his way our calculations won't be nearly that simple.  We need more room for it.  I'd put that text readout in it's own box that can be resized, and it can be turned off when not wanted.
here I have to disagree, Fallout happens to be one of the only games where that text box never bothered me. I found that the messages added a lot to my gaming experience, I liked to examine everything, partly to get to know the world and partly to see what the developers didn't feel like working on :)

the resizing and hiding remark I with absolutely. I keep forgetting that the GUI does not have to be just static pop-up windows

Quote from: eleazzaar
* Temperature bar should probably look like an actual thermometer, i.e. not a red-blue gradient, but a red line (or silver) that stops at the level temperature.
but of course

Quote from: eleazzaar
* Character and Inventory screens should be separate, unless there is some compelling reason they need to be visible at once.  I think there will be too much info to fit at once anyway.
Why I put them together was because there are some statistics that the persons equipment changes one way or another, some resistances, be they location specific or not, encumbrance, some items may add to skills (a good set of lockpicks makes picking locks tons easier that just a hairpin) etc. So if that information should be available to the player one way or another then why not show the two screens together.

I get your point though I personally wouldn't be against scrolling if everything does not fit in one window.
But that depends on how much information there is going to be, information that's going to be displayed that is.

[quote author=eleazzaar
* I don't see a need for a window navigation between "trade, loot, sell, steal, gamble".  These actions will be rarely available from the same object, i.e. if you click on a box or a corpse, you can only loot.   "Trade" and "Sell" should probably be the same interface, i don't see a reason to distinguish them.  This and especially gamble could be accessed via dialog.  "Steal" is should probably be an action you initiate against a person. 
[/quote]
yes, well, that wasn't intended as navigation. I put all the 'commands' or 'choices' together just to show that the window they will go with is the same.
So when you use your Pickpocket skill on someone this window pops up and you can select an item (or items) and then press 'steal'. Same with Looting and when you trade, again, you select the items you wish for, a running count of the price will be presented to the player in the/a feedback window and when they're ready they press Purchase or Barter. While you're selecting the NPCs items you can also select your own and their prices will be compared to the NPCs.


and the compass I didn't really include anywhere this time over because I really didn't know how it could be used in the game.
At first too, the GUI mockup I have at the Wiki, the compass was intended just as a skin, the display would display health or 'action points' or whatever


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: eleazzaar on October 29, 2009, 09:37:55 PM
* I found the little text box crammed into the side of fallout's hud inadequate and annoying.  And if Zenbits has his way our calculations won't be nearly that simple.  We need more room for it.  I'd put that text readout in it's own box that can be resized, and it can be turned off when not wanted.
here I have to disagree, Fallout happens to be one of the only games where that text box never bothered me. I found that the messages added a lot to my gaming experience, I liked to examine everything, partly to get to know the world and partly to see what the developers didn't feel like working on :)

the resizing and hiding remark I with absolutely. I keep forgetting that the GUI does not have to be just static pop-up windows

I wasn't clear.  I don't have a problem with Fallout's text readout.  I have a problem with cramming the text into a box much too small.  That's why i'd like to see it in it's own resizable box, even if it's anchored to something else.  While we probably would have more room than Fallout, if the text was kept in the bar, i still it would be cramped.

* Character and Inventory screens should be separate, unless there is some compelling reason they need to be visible at once.  I think there will be too much info to fit at once anyway.
Why I put them together was because there are some statistics that the persons equipment changes one way or another, some resistances, be they location specific or not, encumbrance, some items may add to skills (a good set of lockpicks makes picking locks tons easier that just a hairpin) etc. So if that information should be available to the player one way or another then why not show the two screens together.

I get your point though I personally wouldn't be against scrolling if everything does not fit in one window.
But that depends on how much information there is going to be, information that's going to be displayed that is.

If you have to scroll, you still don't have everything on the screen at once, it's not necessarily better than flipping between two screens.  Though of course it's hard to say without knowing how much of the info overlaps, and how much scrolling would be involved

Alternatively whatever bits of info are relevant to both screens could be put in both.  For instance some of the info about encumbrance would probably be relevant to both, but the inventory screen would probably go into more detail.  Any basic stats you can effect with equipment should probably be listed on the inventory screen.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on October 30, 2009, 12:30:13 AM
I know i've been away for a while, and probably don't have time to really get involved again.  But it's hard to resist a GUI discussion, and maybe i can help move this along.

We missed you!

Quote
* Has the idea of having a party been abandoned?  None of these GUIs support multiple characters.  A good GUI for a party is very different from a single player game GUI.  Even if you don't directly control them, you'll want to know some of your companion(s) stats and status

No, but I guess we are just trying to get something out there.  I think the game as to work equally well with parties of 1, 2,3,  etc. (up to... what did we say, 6?)

It would be wise to keep this in mind, however.  FOs' "party interface" was hacked around the dialogue interface... which was kind of meh.  But I do like the concept that the party-NPCs are not your little puppets... they are people!  With feelings!    It would be kind of cool if they just communicated with you by talking.  You know.  Like your actual friends.  They might even lie!

Quote
* Why do we need a compass?  Can you actually rotate the viewpoint?

Strange, but for some reason "lost in wilderness" to me means "compass good" but I haven't actually pondered the game mechanics of it...  We can just table it for now.


Quote
* I wouldn't make a "skill" button for using skills, but instead bring up a contextual menu when you click on an object.  For skills that have no object (if any), click on the player's character.

Agreed.

Quote
* I found the little text box crammed into the side of fallout's hud inadequate and annoying.  And if Zenbits has his way our calculations won't be nearly that simple.  We need more room for it.  I'd put that text readout in it's own box that can be resized, and it can be turned off when not wanted.

Agreed.

Quote
* I believe you need some sort of "humanoid" icon (at least for the selected character) to show what is damaged if that is indeed significant to gameplay.  However, having 35 hit locations that don't really matter seems excessive.  IMHO hit locations should be reduced to a number that really matter to the player, and can practically be displayed to the player.
You also probably need a more linear way to see how close to dead a character is.

What does the player care how the internals of the game work??  The point of having 5x hit locations was to allow Players to customize armor and clothing bits.  Which is cool and post-apocalyptic.   

Practically speaking, I guess you could model this with armor that has fractional coverage (like an elbow pad covers 15% of the arm), but mechanistically or conceptially this is not actually simpler.

If all it takes is "one good shot" to kill you... it's not really going to matter "how close you are" to death.

Quote
* Temperature bar should probably look like an actual thermometer, i.e. not a red-blue gradient, but a red line (or silver) that stops at the level temperature.

I actually think it would be cool to look like one of those cheesy wintercoat zipper thermometers.

Quote
* Character and Inventory screens should be separate, unless there is some compelling reason they need to be visible at once.  I think there will be too much info to fit at once anyway.

Agreed, with caveat that if Gaspard can make it work, I'm coold iwth it.

Quote
* I don't see a need for a window navigation between "trade, loot, sell, steal, gamble".  These actions will be rarely available from the same object, i.e. if you click on a box or a corpse, you can only loot.   "Trade" and "Sell" should probably be the same interface, i don't see a reason to distinguish them.  This and especially gamble could be accessed via dialog.  "Steal" is should probably be an action you initiate against a person.  

I think he was just brainstorming... I agree pretty much with the above.  Under no circumstances should you be able to "steal" from someone while you are talking to them.... I will have to think about a "gamble" interface.  Dialog doesn't really seem right...  it's more like trade.  "I'll give you 2 bullets for the jerky".  "How about 3??"  "How about we dice for them?"


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: superfluid on October 30, 2009, 02:19:14 AM
I agree more or less with everything that's been said so far regarding the HUD.

One suggestion I have is that for the sake of time to implement and keeping it simple, as a long-time Rougelike player, I'd like to nominate a Nethack-like inventory/equip screen. It's a very simple list of your equipment with their stats, and an indication of whether it's equipped or not. IMO these guys got it right (with a lot of stuff, actually) a long time ago. I think we could learn a lot by seeing how they handled things.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Nethack-inventory.png)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: shevegen on October 30, 2009, 10:29:52 PM
Why not enable multiple ways to "play" the game? Such an inventory system is super simple.

So hardcore players could have and keep it... the default however should more be Fallout-style (i mean graphical)


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: superfluid on October 31, 2009, 12:49:27 AM
Why not enable multiple ways to "play" the game? Such an inventory system is super simple.

So hardcore players could have and keep it... the default however should more be Fallout-style (i mean graphical)

Implementing two interfaces would be... twice as much work :)

I'm not saying it can't be graphical, but just putting the idea out there that the flashier the design the more work it will be to develop, debug and maintain. Specially for a techdemo, and we're almost into November already


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: eleazzaar on October 31, 2009, 06:14:22 PM
We missed you!

thanks

* Has the idea of having a party been abandoned?....

No, but I guess we are just trying to get something out there.  I think the game as to work equally well with parties of 1, 2,3,  etc. (up to... what did we say, 6?)

It would be wise to keep this in mind, however.  FOs' "party interface" was hacked around the dialogue interface... which was kind of meh.  But I do like the concept that the party-NPCs are not your little puppets... they are people!  With feelings!    It would be kind of cool if they just communicated with you by talking.  You know.  Like your actual friends.  They might even lie!

I also really like the idea of non-puppet party-members.  But practically speaking, that's not something that can be quickly implemented.  I expect the most practical path would be to first implement the GUI and controls for the party just the same as for the player character.  Then we can later start building the AI and defining the exceptions to player control.

As for an dialog-only control system, in my experience those are annoying.  I found FO's system limiting.  Un-patched NWN1 also mostly used the dialog to control your henchman, and it was a big pain.  Checking stats, trading items and equipping gear are simply much more easily done with the same GUI that the player uses than a convoluted dialog tree.  Even if we disallow some of these actions (or a subset of them, or disallow under certain circumstances), it's still probably simpler to disable or grey out part of the GUI.  Even if you can't change a minion's inventory, you may want to examine it and see how he's equipped.


* I believe you need some sort of "humanoid" icon (at least for the selected character) to show what is damaged if that is indeed significant to gameplay.  However, having 35 hit locations that don't really matter seems excessive.  IMHO hit locations should be reduced to a number that really matter to the player, and can practically be displayed to the player.
You also probably need a more linear way to see how close to dead a character is.

What does the player care how the internals of the game work??  The point of having 5x hit locations was to allow Players to customize armor and clothing bits.  Which is cool and post-apocalyptic.   

Practically speaking, I guess you could model this with armor that has fractional coverage (like an elbow pad covers 15% of the arm), but mechanistically or conceptially this is not actually simpler.

If all it takes is "one good shot" to kill you... it's not really going to matter "how close you are" to death.

I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

Obviously we don't need a complex GUI to tell the player he is dead.  But for everything else... all the "one not-good-enough" shots, shots deflected by armor, and non-fatal melee damage, the player is going to want to know how much a character is damaged, and what effect (if any) it has on the character's abilities.  He needs to know (for instance) when it's time to run away.

He cares about the internals workings of the game to the degree that it determines weather he wins or looses combat.


I will have to think about a "gamble" interface.  Dialog doesn't really seem right...  it's more like trade.  "I'll give you 2 bullets for the jerky".  "How about 3??"  "How about we dice for them?"
Well, you could integrate gambling into trading, but that seems a little odd.

Lots of people would be willing to trade that won't want to gamble.  Gambling is generally more a form of entertainment, not a part of normal commerce.


Implementing two interfaces would be... twice as much work :)

I'm not saying it can't be graphical, but just putting the idea out there that the flashier the design the more work it will be to develop, debug and maintain. Specially for a techdemo, and we're almost into November already

Exactly.


Title: Re: HUD
Post by: zenbitz on November 01, 2009, 11:05:28 PM
Quote
I also really like the idea of non-puppet party-members.  But practically speaking, that's not something that can be quickly implemented.  I expect the most practical path would be to first implement the GUI and controls for the party just the same as for the player character.  Then we can later start building the AI and defining the exceptions to player control.

That doesn't make sense.  Having NPCs (in your party) play exactly like NPCs not in your party, that decide not to shoot you (i.e, NO special interface whatsoever) is actually the easiest case, isn't it.
You still have to write the NPC (enemy) AI.  If the NPC (friend) AI sucks just as bad, at least it will be balanced.

But your actually suggestion here is also good - I think I would just have "tabs" for each character in your party (assuming we give the PC _any_ special knowledge or control), and grey out certain parts.

I don't see how that's a "special" GUI for party interactions, it's just a "stack" of the single player GUI.

Quote
Even if you can't change a minion's inventory, you may want to examine it and see how he's equipped.

See, you used the word "minion" there.  What if they aren't minions?  It's an interesting problem to be sure - how much should the Player be allowed to "know" about his NPCs?  I am kind of into him knowing as little as absolutly necessary.  A party member should not be a minion... he should be someone who agreeds to hang out with PC for mutual benefit.   

Quote
I don't understand what point you are trying to make here.

Obviously we don't need a complex GUI to tell the player he is dead.  But for everything else... all the "one not-good-enough" shots, shots deflected by armor, and non-fatal melee damage, the player is going to want to know how much a character is damaged, and what effect (if any) it has on the character's abilities.  He needs to know (for instance) when it's time to run away.

Well, we are kind of talking past each other here, but not really disagreeing.

1) Player has a general "damage" rating that when it goes to 100%, he's out cold.  There are similar ratings for exhastion and stress.  You can call it "hit points" if you want me to hate you.

2) Player has a simple graphical gui to see if he has any "serious" wounds (i.e, beyond the subdual damage above).  Using green-yellow-orange-red-black, that's "no wound", "minor wound", "serious wound", "critical wound", "Dead (or limb destroyed/severed)".    We could probably also

Now - I did detail some sub-classes of major and serious wounds that have different penalties.  I think this is fine.   If you are IN COMBAT and you get a "hurt leg" (say "orange" level which implies some moderate skil/stat penalty) - you don't know if it's mildly sprained, severely sprained, ligament or muscle tear, or what)... all you know is that you can't run or jump on it.   You would have to actually take a moment OUT OF COMBAT and diagnose the injury (or have someone else do it).

But practicaly speaking... the results in combat (i.e, how much your skills are impaired are *roughly* the same).  Why should the player use information like -20% to skill vs. -25% to skill to make a decision whether or not he should flee... 

Quote
He cares about the internals workings of the game to the degree that it determines weather he wins or looses combat.

To summarize: An "orange" leg wound is an "orange" leg wound, the rest it just details and healing time.

Quote
quote author=zenbitz link=topic=413.msg6120#msg6120 date=1256859013]I will have to think about a "gamble" interface.  Dialog doesn't really seem right...  it's more like trade.  "I'll give you 2 bullets for the jerky".  "How about 3??"  "How about we dice for them?"
Well, you could integrate gambling into trading, but that seems a little odd.

Lots of people would be willing to trade that won't want to gamble.  Gambling is generally more a form of entertainment, not a part of normal commerce.

I actually think gambling tends to have a little too much emphasis in RPGs.  I was just getting creative with the idea that it's related to barter...   I guess in PARPG it could be used as entertainment that lowers your stress meter...  (unless you lose!).  I dunno... gambling interface is sort of 142,000th on my list of things to do.

Quote
Quote
I'm not saying it can't be graphical, but just putting the idea out there that the flashier the design the more work it will be to develop, debug and maintain. Specially for a techdemo, and we're almost into November already

Exactly.

Here we agree... but I think either way for party based stuff we are OK from a design perspective.  We can either extend the PC interface to other people with "tabs" (like uh... you know... Amazon.com interface) or not really alllow much interaction at all.

I don't really think we should worry about some kind of "party matrix" interface where you tell Bob to use his axe and Jim to use his cross bow, and Merlin to case lightning bolt.

As always... programmers need to write GUI (like all code) such that it's not hard to extend it for other ideas.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Gaspard on December 10, 2010, 06:52:13 PM
So to continue on the topic I kind of started over at the IRC - text-based inventory as a notebook screen I'm quoting one of superfluid's posts

I agree more or less with everything that's been said so far regarding the HUD.

One suggestion I have is that for the sake of time to implement and keeping it simple, as a long-time Rougelike player, I'd like to nominate a Nethack-like inventory/equip screen. It's a very simple list of your equipment with their stats, and an indication of whether it's equipped or not. IMO these guys got it right (with a lot of stuff, actually) a long time ago. I think we could learn a lot by seeing how they handled things.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Nethack-inventory.png)

Nethack screen: http://retrobits.net/palmos/images/nethack07.png (http://retrobits.net/palmos/images/nethack07.png):
(http://retrobits.net/palmos/images/nethack07.png)

I used to play a lot of text-based games, many MUD's mainly, and I see this as being very attractive indeed ))


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 11, 2010, 07:11:43 PM
I don't mind text-only inventory, but... OMG NOES for nethack-like interface to that. I just hate it. I have been playing a lot of roguelikes, even play now some (I play more IF at this time, but I have NetHack and POWDER running on my PDA), and what they came up with in NetHack keeps me away from whole game. Even when it is mouse-driven variant its just feels sooo clumsy to use it.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on December 14, 2010, 02:58:21 AM
I don't mind text-only inventory, but... OMG NOES for nethack-like interface to that. I just hate it. I have been playing a lot of roguelikes, even play now some (I play more IF at this time, but I have NetHack and POWDER running on my PDA), and what they came up with in NetHack keeps me away from whole game. Even when it is mouse-driven variant its just feels sooo clumsy to use it.

Agree.. however some kind of file-tree like clickable list might be OK.  Maybe even click-and-drag.  These are implemented in just about every programming language.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Gaspard on December 14, 2010, 01:01:15 PM
Also, this could be implemented fast.

I haven't been able to sit down and show you guys what I have in mind, but this way we could have a working inventory (textbased) and thumbnails etc could and would come later.

EDIT:
OK, I photochopped a fast thing together from your (Q_x) notebook from the blog and things I googled for õ_õ
It is very rough and not thought through, but it should show what I have in mind - instead of a puppet we'd have a list of places where things can be worn - the more you load things onto your body, the more you get protection from cold, but would lose in mobility (though that's already the mechanics section...)
In the right there are two "post-its" on the left you get the image or drawing/sketch of the item ("glued" into the notebook) and on the right the text part - description (the one paperclipped)

you'd use and equip/unqeuip items by double-click or equip/unequip by dragging

more thoughts: I guess the backpack should get a separate window on the page to the right like the quickslots have on the left (also: right now I have accidentally the quick slots in the carrying window, too)
on the right tehre could be tabs (bookmarks) for: wearable, consumable, weapons, all (default)


(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/igrim/Notebookinv.png)


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 14, 2010, 04:19:34 PM
OK, step by step:

I love the idea.
If you have a scanner - it is trivial to make superior quality artwork for mockups like this just by using it to scan elements and chop/glue it later digitally.

We will be having hard times rotating the text.
We may use bigger squared paper area for the list. Dunno how to solve the problem of having slider on the right side of the inventory list, but maybe someone will have a better idea. Maybe it will be better when moving description to the left and browsing in pages instead of sliding the list up and down?

I also find easy to interchange contents of left and right sides of the notebook, so that you can have:

wearing items | inventory
barter | inventory
item description | inventory

but we may also change it easily to:

wearing items | type X or Y items
or
container A | container B


Edit:
parts of that file may be useful:
http://opengameart.org/content/various-old-paper-stains-drops-and-other


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: mvBarracuda on December 14, 2010, 04:51:48 PM
Looks great to me Gaspard :-)

One major advantage of a mostly text-based inventory interface is that it can at least hide some of the complexities of the inventory mechanics.

E.g. that's the current encumbrance mechanics are pretty complex, see:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Encumbrance_Armor_Clothes

It would be quite complicated to visualize the different inventory slot types without risking to "bloat" the GUI. If you use a text-based inventory interface, the different inventory slot types are just another line of text per type.

Added the mockup to the wiki:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Gallery#GUI

EDIT: Concerning support for slightly rotated text: pychan doesn't seem to support something like that out of the box. Nevertheless it sounds like a great concept to me to underline the "handmade" look of the GUI. So perfectly aligned text would actually look pretty odd in this case. So if pychan doesn't support rotated text out of the box, we'll definately find a way to implement support for it ourselves.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Technomage on December 14, 2010, 09:34:53 PM
Beautiful Gaspard! I'm loving it :) It really works well with Q_x's notebook concept.

In terms of the page scrolling, we could use a "doggy-eared" page effect. This is how the original Myst games did it if I remember correctly - you just click on the folded edge and it flips to the next page. Kind of annoying at first because it isn't particularly intuitive, but you get used to it pretty quickly.

This is what I mean:
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTbbAicfPK_OcuJlGTLV_kpuZ0mRVFz7qZnpLJNhyKROk9hkPiM)

Paper/post-it tabs would also work, just like the rest of the notebook (maybe one tab per container?).

Of course, this would make the inventory non-continuous which could pose some problems - we probably don't want to split containers across inventory pages. However as long as we set a maximum size on the containers a simple algorithm could sort the inventory screen such that containers aren't split.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on December 15, 2010, 01:05:59 AM
I think icons have strengths which text can not have:
  • Icons are more easily distinguished, making them easier to find. When all of the [items] are presented as words, each word must be read in turn to find the desired one. Icons, on the other hand, are easily remembered and can be found at a glance.
  • Icons usually take up less space. This allows more functions to fit within the same space, or allows for the UI [inventory] to take up less screen real estate.
  • Icons can incorporate [item] status information.
Based on this text vs icons in web design (http://designaday.tumblr.com/post/91812707/back-to-basics-icons-vs-text) post by Jack Moffett.

Regarding space: look at the inventory screen of these BG2 screens (http://www.manapool.co.uk/baldurs-gate-2-shadows-of-amn-review/) and imagine it in text form.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on December 15, 2010, 01:43:22 AM
I don't think the advantage of Icons is very clear cut when you are dealing with many 10's of items that can be highly similar.

And actually - there are 28 Icons in the above "Post Reply" think and ~1/2 of the I don't know what they are.  The ones I DO know are "universal" Icons.

So in the case where objects/tasks are easily distinguishable icons are great - assuming you use interface so much that they are memorized.

BUT in BG2 for example - how many things are represented by 'green potion'?  what's the difference between green and blue?  How do you tell between the +1 Sword of Adequacy and the +8 Sword of Awesome Smite?   How deep the blue flaming border around the sword is?

With icons - it's easy to tell a Leather Jacket from a Machete or a .357 magnum - but not so easy to tell a .357 magnum from a .38 special or a Machete from a Sax or a Leather Jacket from a Pea Coat.

So - it cuts both ways.  In any case, you need to have mouseover/tooltip with text over the icons.

The other advantage of a text view is that we don't have to create 250 icons RIGHT NOW.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Gaspard on December 15, 2010, 06:01:45 AM
I think icons have strengths which text can not have:
  • Icons are more easily distinguished, making them easier to find. When all of the [items] are presented as words, each word must be read in turn to find the desired one. Icons, on the other hand, are easily remembered and can be found at a glance.
  • Icons usually take up less space. This allows more functions to fit within the same space, or allows for the UI [inventory] to take up less screen real estate.
  • Icons can incorporate [item] status information.
Based on this text vs icons in web design (http://designaday.tumblr.com/post/91812707/back-to-basics-icons-vs-text) post by Jack Moffett.

Regarding space: look at the inventory screen of these BG2 screens (http://www.manapool.co.uk/baldurs-gate-2-shadows-of-amn-review/) and imagine it in text form.
@qubodup - so, are you against text-based by principle or do you just doubt it's practicality ?

The Jack Moffett arguments are valid in many aspects, but in the end we come down to a very big difference - we're dealing with a game interface rather than a website. While the design principles for icons should and do apply here, my goal's still to try and come up with a text-based inventory UI, which is intuitive and simple to use.
The goal is to have the layout and divisions between 'containers' positioned in such a way that using them would not hinder your 'speed' while scrolling through your inventory - to have everything positioned in it's 'right' place and thus making it's use more intuitive.

Right now in the photochop I made everything is cluttered and not thought through, but when things are in place everything should make sense.

What zenbitz said applies too. When you have a furry coat and a bearskin in your inventory and only the furry coat is wearable, then you wouldn't go trying it on. It would probably be in a 'window' separate from wearables, or there wouldn't be a mark that it is wearable (wearable/wieldable items usually deteriorate and eventually break down). In-game in a container (chest, box, locker, car trunk)
you'd see the following:
Container:
- A furry coat (well-worn)
- Bearskin

Also - the text could have colour-coding instead of quick status info in brackets

Ofcourse all of the information that tells us that can be shown with an icon, too - the quality or state of an article of clothing can be a numerical value in the corner of an item + an icon can look more flashy at first glance.

Until now I totally forgot about this one (how could I, it was only the game of the year in all gaming magazines before it's release) other big example of a textbased inventory - *drumroll* FALLOUT 3. Here you go:

(http://gamedesignreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/f3_stimpacks.jpg)

Personally I found it's use convenient rather than inconvenient. Simple, in your face with all the necessary information and the text is a single colour even because of the artistic choice made with the interface. I'm actually considering trying some of the FO3 inventory 'features' in the next photochop (which I hope I should have for showing soon enough)

In the FO3-like approach the tabs could be quickly accessed with the arrow keys, a matter or microseconds, if you've got the reflexes. If there enough items that scrolling becomes necessary, the arrow keys and mouse-wheel + scrolling bar.


Concerning support for slightly rotated text: pychan doesn't seem to support something like that out of the box. Nevertheless it sounds like a great concept to me to underline the "handmade" look of the GUI. So perfectly aligned text would actually look pretty odd in this case. So if pychan doesn't support rotated text out of the box, we'll definately find a way to implement support for it ourselves.

Would it be crazy nuts for coders to write a script that transforms the provided text into an image and rotates the image into place ? Also - depending on the layout the description is probably going to have a word limit or letter limit to keep it simple.
Whether there is a tool for it, in item-creation, either in mapper or separately, you'd have a section for the description and separate slots for weight and/or any other parameters, the post it would have it's own layout mapped and would position the text into it's correct place - in the game, the image would be rotated.

I mean - I think it is not necessary and a horizontal text would be fine, I'll try to address this problem in a future photochop for further discussion (again - it is not that important and in no way essential to the design, the rotated text I mean)

@ Technomage - the image you provided is broken : (( I couldn't find another image of the Myst inventory, either.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 15, 2010, 01:02:15 PM
@ rotating text:
Small font is sometimes kept in bitmap fonts, this is why Times New Roman is so clear when it is 8 pixels high - this is basically all handcrafted. Font is usually anti-aliased and best if hinted.
It is rendered into grid of pixels, which gets disturbed when rotating. Text will loose some readability. Better way would be rotating it at lowest possible level, before rasterizing it, so that it will be antialiased normally and will be not as fuzzy as when rotating after that, and we will still could possibly use tweaks like subsampling if it will be available in some distant future.

Possible good-looking hacks:
If rotating before rendering is impossible - rotating big text only.
Prepare some things in bitmap form and using that instead.

@ icons vs text
I'm a "visual" guy, but small icons make my eyes tired in no time. Searching for stuff is not easy for most of the time, and obtaining description from X different items that all are similar is extra uncool. Plus, icons usually are tossed and shuffled often, so there is no "the right place" for a particular item, where text entries are usually sorted with some key like type or container and alphabetically later.

This turns using an item by 180 degree: you are supposed to choose action first and seek for item later on the list that shows suitable items only. This again turns abilities and skills by 180 degrees, cause there will be need of having instant view on all possible actions somewhere. And what we are using now (RMB on item to get the list of items) will not be used too often. We may solve this in other ways, I may be biased too much with roguelikes which have to handle 100+ items in that way.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: mvBarracuda on December 15, 2010, 08:03:49 PM
Concerning the FO3 GUI: I hated it with a passion because it felt so clunky. However that was not really a problem of the text-based approach but because of two other GUI aspects:
1. The GUI was made for game consoles, so you standard font size was rather large (so you can read it a couple of meters away from your couch); as PARPG is targetting PC systems, we can simply go for a smaller font and that should do the trick
2. The GUI didn't offer any kind of advanced sorting options for items; it would be great if you could sort the inventory items based on some criteria, e.g. weight, value, bulk size, condition, etc.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 15, 2010, 09:10:11 PM
This is my idea on evaluation of gaspard's idea.
Paper clip is missing, but thats only due to me being in hurry to show you that.
http://wiki.parpg.net/File:Notebookmockup_sketchy_copy.png
On the left page you can decide what you want to do, on the right - sort inventory via different criteria.
What is depicted here are on the right:
info | barter | container | wear
and on the left:
weight | bulk | where-it-is | wereables/weapon only | by type (arrow up says its sorted upwards, whatever would it mean)

The list of items consists of "up" and "down" arrows, it indicates opened branches with + and cunopened with -

This is just a mockup for brainstorming, really.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on December 16, 2010, 12:14:14 AM
I like it Q_X.

I remember badly struggling with the FO interface especially with "long guns" because the drag-n-drop was dependent on the center of the object, not the edge.   I guess it's 2010 though.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on December 21, 2010, 10:05:01 PM
I don't think the advantage of Icons is very clear cut when you are dealing with many 10's of items that can be highly similar.

And actually - there are 28 Icons in the above "Post Reply" think and ~1/2 of the I don't know what they are.  The ones I DO know are "universal" Icons.
Icons are easier to differentiate than text.
Text on the other hand is easier to learn, because it is more clear than icon.
I think differentiation is more important when navigating an inventory than ease of understanding new items.

So in the case where objects/tasks are easily distinguishable icons are great - assuming you use interface so much that they are memorized.

With icons - it's easy to tell a Leather Jacket from a Machete or a .357 magnum - but not so easy to tell a .357 magnum from a .38 special or a Machete from a Sax or a Leather Jacket from a Pea Coat.
color and perspective allow to make big visual differences between similar items.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5245/5280664614_8e7de1a793_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5280664614/)
Fallout RPG Item Icons Collection (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5280664614/sizes/o)

The other advantage of a text view is that we don't have to create 250 icons RIGHT NOW.
One placeholder icon is enough. :)

@qubodup - so, are you against text-based by principle or do you just doubt it's practicality ?
I think icons are better for items in an inventory rather than text.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 22, 2010, 01:41:54 PM
Lets summarize it maybe:

Text-based inventory:
Easier to implement
Makes things like using containers and filtering trivial to use
Size can be scaled up and down
Costs no extra work
Gives more specific knowledge
makes navigating easy if there is < 100 items in inventory, but in the same time makes encapsulation/filtering/keeping order easier
Looks clear

Icon-based inventory:
Harder to implement
Makes things like containers and filtering hard to use (unless you can filter all the small or green items), also makes some problem when implementing bulk and slots
Size is fixed, hard to scale bitmaps (with guichan under mask)
Cost extra work when making files and binding it inside game structure
Gives more instant information
makes navigating easy no matter what the inventory count is, but makes hard to distinguish between similar items. Makes need to toss things manually to keep them in order sometimes.
Looks attractive

My personal conclusions: if using icons, target rather 75x75 or 100x100 pix base size, so that similar items will look differently and there will be hard to find an item that is hiding in an eye's dead spot.
If using text, take care of usability and things like sorting.

For me it looks pretty similar to one of holy wars, like console v. GUI


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 30, 2010, 11:34:21 AM
Progress report
Decided: we will stay with icons. We will however take what's best in text-based menus and put it in good use - namely filtering and sorting will be implemented.
I've made a mockup, as promised. Sorry for lack of spaces here and there, Inkscape insisted on puting D chars instead of it.

Last, undescribed icon in the column, on the bottom, is "drop on ground". Should work with DnD items on it as well.

One of icons is highlighted, description is shown above it. It may be full info (I can squeeze 2 lines of text more there).
All the new elements are made in raw vector, this is not a proposal, just a quick mockup.
I have the idea that when you press "Use Ability" the abilities will be shown in place of items. It may be text list or "inventory like" set of icons with description above, just like inventory items have.

I thought even of inventory items "holding" an ability - so that you need needle to patch your clothes, knife to flesh out animal, billycan to cook meal, and you simply use billycan on meat to make a stew.

This last action (using things) is little bit tricky. I still don't know how to use things quickly with one page of inventory only, but it should be doable. Maybe dragging target (meat in above example) icon onto lightbulb, this will make abilities visible, and later you just choose what to do with the meat (so choose billycan and make a stew, or choose firestarting device and have it roasted? and in this case - how to make PC eat raw meat? have "artificial jaw" to eat things and doll to wear them?)

If someone needs Inkscape file with things below, just drop me a line, its not that big, I can send it ;)


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Gaspard on December 30, 2010, 12:22:59 PM
Isn't the item description area a bit too small ? If the grid is scrollable, then it shouldn't matter at all if it were a hex or two shorter for the description area to be bigger - a low-tech bottle of beer might not be something that you write a lot about, but more complex items could need more description.

OR for a more detailed item info there could be a pop-up window ?

My two cents on the layout - I still think that bookmarks, instead of drawn buttons on the page would serve better as the tabs/icons to switch between various sorting settings etc. The icons right next to the grids clutter the whole thing magnificently, while bookmarks can be in-theme (notebook) and colorcoded to differentiate between actions and sorting bookmarks

EDIT: also, the grid with items would probably work better with a fixed-color or fixed-texture background - then they could be taylored for that and that would be fine.

how are big items dealt with as icons ? They'll just be.. smaller ? melee weapons could have hilts or blades, and pistols and guns shouldn't be a problem, but how about rifles ?


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on December 30, 2010, 01:23:13 PM
@ top space - it can be bigger like 2-3 lines extra without problems. Also text can be smaller, fitting 1-2 lines extra without bad readability. so 4 extra lines without much problem.

@ tabs, this will mess usability issues a bit. You will have top row of small paper leafs, and pushing them will not change things below that totally, just sort or filter items. This is IMHO non-intuitive. I'd rather put there more general stuff - quests, inventory, character stats, maybe main menu or map, major things.
If you're distracted by the way I sketched it - don't worry, it will be fancy ;) may be stickers, things drawn with pencil, like sticker peeled of an orange to indicate food, whatever. Also placement is not mandatory, may be above and below the icons.

@ icons size - if there will be no need of sorting things manually (unlimited amount of squares in inventory with good sorting support), I can imagine multisquare items. Just without, as qubodup called it, inventory tetris.
We can simply visualize 2^0-9 bulk scale with 1-10 squares (+/- 1) used by an icon (so usually items would take 2-4 squares). With this approach we can make like 30x30 pix squares.

One more thing, that may ease things a little - we may have line of text just below the inventory, displaying "status", so things like "piece of meet selected, choose an action now" or "warm boots dressed, +1 speed, +2 thermal protection, old boots taken off", or "not enough space in your backpack", "you can't carry this, its too heavy".





Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on December 30, 2010, 06:19:39 PM
some comments:

1) Short vs. long descriptions - I think that having a short one appear in the panel is fine.  I think that a longer one should be available by selecting (double-clicking?) the item itself (popup window?)

2) As drawn, you cannot really distinguish "sorts" from "filters" - maybe one group should be on a a different axis?  Or possiible have a photoshop style icon + hold to select sub type (so "sort" would be an arrow a/z, but with a sub type next to it, filter is usually some kind of "funnel" icon...

3) Not sure what "Use ability" is supposed to be...

4) Not sure if this is discussed elsewhere but right-click on an item should show a context menu - could include standard actions like drop, examine (gives long description), use, list of skills/abilities that can be applied to it.

5) for "combining" items, I think we need a different view.   I think Arcanum had something like this, although I still haven't played it much.    Another option would be that you could do a standard "control-click" to select various items then right click for context menu and it would show you various "combine" options.   

There are I guess two kinds of "combining" objects - one is where you just take A+B -> C, and another where you take A+B+C put it into D -> E + D back again.   So you need "D" like a catalyst (or in the "Beer" example, as a container) but it's "Unchanged" by the combination.   ... also some combinations are reverseable and some arent''''... yipes I better make a wiki page about that.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 03, 2011, 08:04:00 PM
@ top space/description:
This is bugging me as well.. I would like to avoid opening pop-ups.. perhaps the left side could be used for longer description texts..

@ layout/tabs/skills:
I would prefer text instead of icons.
There definitely needs to be a separation between skill button and sorting/filtering buttons.
I think I would prefer skills to be part of item context menus, rather than a button in the inventory.

@ icons size:
They should be all the same size. Like in F1/2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5280664614/sizes/o/in/photostream/


@zenbitz: use ability would probably open a list of skills and then you would chose a skill and then the inventory would be filtered by items that can have the skill applied to them.
or maybe the use ability button would invoke a skill list after clicking the next item.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 03, 2011, 09:26:05 PM
I thought I'd post my quick mockup

the sorting/filtering solution is horrible... take this as visual food for thought


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 04, 2011, 06:05:55 PM
Another mockup of how equipping could be displayed and how mouse could interact by hovering.

No hover: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5324383074/sizes/o/in/photostream/
No hover commented: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5324382932/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Hover: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5324383256/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Hover commented: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5324382728/sizes/o/in/photostream/


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on January 04, 2011, 07:46:21 PM
Looks good!  I don't have a preference for hover vs. non hover.  Although I am generally a "hover" type guy.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Gaspard on January 04, 2011, 08:52:36 PM
Blah from IRC:
The fading away
, if it can be made to work - then you can actually see the numerical values and do your calculations (if need be)
When you sort an item by bulk - for a few seconds after the "sorting" action, the bulk is shown and then fades away again.
Bulk and/or weight or quantity etc


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Technomage on January 05, 2011, 05:03:06 AM
The inventory concepts look great! I was talking with barra today and he suggested that I collaborate with y'all to get some of the inventory mockups in-game for a more thorough analysis.

I'm not too familiar with Pychan and its XML scripting, but if we can agree upon a set of functional requirements I can start implementing it in-code.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: mvBarracuda on January 05, 2011, 06:55:12 AM
I've written down some starting points for the GUI designers how to work with Pychan. Still heavy WIP, but it's a start:
http://wiki.parpg.net/How_to_script_the_ingame_GUI


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 05, 2011, 09:19:36 AM
Pychan... Uhh...

Inventory is mostly text driven now (plus icons and bars).
Just few things to clarify:
"Belt" should have few more slots?
We are going to give up with drop-down menus for sorting and use left/right arrows to Filter/sort? (how about just left-right clicking the text there?)
Would we need a dummy there in the middle? (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/historicalanatomies/browse.html have some decent old anatomy books, Gautier's is my faved one since years  :D)


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: mvBarracuda on January 05, 2011, 05:35:48 PM
Pychan... Uhh...
We spoke about the topic with technomage last night, as it wasn't really sure who would be responsible for which parts of the GUI design workflow.

We agreed upon trying out this workflow:
1. Mechanics department designs mechanics
2. GUI designer creates GUI screen mockup based on mechanics
3. Graphics artist creates interface art
4a. GUI designer implements GUI screen via pychan's XML-based GUI scripting
4b. Programmers assist with GUI creation where necessary; especially if specific Python code is needed beyond the XML-based GUI scripting

So far the plan is to provide documentation that is easy enough to understand for the GUI designers so that they can implement large parts of the GUI via pychan's XML-based GUI scripting. I'm not too sure how well this will work out, but leaving all the GUI scripting work to the programming department is not really an option either. The programmers already got their hands full with work right now and pychan's XML scripting isn't that hard to get started with.

I propose to check out the wiki article linked above to get started with pychan. Please let me know what kind of additional information about working with pychan would be needed/helpful to get the GUI designers started.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 06, 2011, 12:08:57 AM
Looks good!  I don't have a preference for hover vs. non hover.  Although I am generally a "hover" type guy.
I'm sorry, I was in a hurry and didn't clarify: The non-hover mockup is while the mouse/cursor does not hover an item, the hover mockup is the same situation but with the mouse/cursor hovering an item.

The two images are showing the same design in two states (mouse is not hovering icon, mouse hovers icon)

The inventory concepts look great! I was talking with barra today and he suggested that I collaborate with y'all to get some of the inventory mockups in-game for a more thorough analysis.

I'm not too familiar with Pychan and its XML scripting, but if we can agree upon a set of functional requirements I can start implementing it in-code.
Great! I'm experienced in coding XHTML, so I'll probably be able to help setting up the static screens. Hopefully I'll learn quick enough to aid in scripting!

1. "Belt" should have few more slots?
2. We are going to give up with drop-down menus for sorting and use left/right arrows to Filter/sort? (how about just left-right clicking the text there?)
3. Would we need a dummy there in the middle? (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/historicalanatomies/browse.html have some decent old anatomy books, Gautier's is my faved one since years  :D)
1. It's the actual belt item I was thinking of. The belt slots would be below the notebook I thought, as they would appear during 'normal' gameplay. (This is what I thought. There's enough space to place all belt slots in the notebook as well). Alternative are possible too.
2. the arrows indicate more that you can change filtering. I think click-action arrows are 'nicer' than a drop-down menu, which requires click-mousemove-click-action.
3. Not sure. Perhaps in the background? It shouldn't be an anatomical drawing since inventory has nothing to do with anatomy though, maybe a human outline like in drakensang (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://seniorgamer.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/drakensang_afdz_05.png&imgrefurl=http://seniorgamer.wordpress.com/category/preview/page/2/&usg=__jtth-Rh4Fc1zKBRF0DoIdt7sOCE=&h=1050&w=1680&sz=2334&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=e4fq0ampII8ZcM:&tbnh=149&tbnw=214&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddrakensang%2Binventory%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D595%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=532&vpy=101&dur=338&hovh=149&hovw=238&tx=102&ty=126&ei=nvkkTcKEKMu38QOgr7WABw&oei=nvkkTcKEKMu38QOgr7WABw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0) ( http://alturl.com/xn6mj )?
In case you or anybody else would like to make modifications to the latest mockups I made: xcf: http://www.box.net/shared/lzcngfqrvx


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 08, 2011, 06:50:45 PM
I was going to start some drawing today. I have done nothing yet. So I may ask a question. Or two. Simple.
50x50 or 64x64 for inventory cell size? (we may use smaller icons, just the grid size matters)
do we want to have a row of buttons to change between wearing, barter and container view?


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 09, 2011, 03:32:20 AM
1. Size: I'm for 64x64 px.

2. Switch wear/barter/container: I'm for separating the views (no buttons) and while in barter/container view, worn items are shown in the inventory but marked 'worn' or have a body icon over them. Like in Morrowind (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://pcmedia.ign.com/pc/image/morrowind_051502_008_640w.jpg&imgrefurl=http://pc.ign.com/dor/objects/14332/the-elder-scrolls-iii-morrowind/images/morrowind_051502_008.html&usg=__ZAAiGH-6aQk6Ntm7szQU3gKOjx4=&h=480&w=640&sz=189&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=gNX8It-qw81hkM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=172&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmorrowind%2Binventory%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1920%26bih%3D932%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=677&vpy=75&dur=892&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=117&ty=104&ei=Ax4pTcv8A8Ks8gOf28iEBw&oei=Ax4pTcv8A8Ks8gOf28iEBw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=62&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0) (boxes around worn items).


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 09, 2011, 07:48:53 PM
Something wicked, but lemme straighten things.
Its a mockup.
It shows roughly what should go where. How much things would fit (both inventory cells and text quantity).
It also shows latest graphics I've done, committed to the code tree.
It also shows and describes what is what.

It is messy. Sundays are always messy. Otherwise it wouldn't be Sunday today.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 13, 2011, 03:02:02 AM
I see some problems:
P1. bars have no label
P2. difference between broken and broken, worn item can't be seen
P3. selection of item is hard to notice, so is hover

I have some questions:
Q1. multiple items can be selected? (wood, plastic bag are both selected?)
Q2. I find stats more interesting than a drawing and would rather see the stats next to worn items, rather than use the space for the drawing. What do you think of having stats in foreground and a silhouette in the background?

Sorry for taking so long to reply :)


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 13, 2011, 09:28:22 AM
I see some problems:
P1. bars have no label
P2. difference between broken and broken, worn item can't be seen
P3. selection of item is hard to notice, so is hover

I have some questions:
Q1. multiple items can be selected? (wood, plastic bag are both selected?)
Q2. I find stats more interesting than a drawing and would rather see the stats next to worn items, rather than use the space for the drawing. What do you think of having stats in foreground and a silhouette in the background?

P1 - there is no text in place on that mockup. I simply presented only the things that I have done with a kind of description. Showed how they fit our small background and so on.
P2 - this was my intention. If its bad idea, I can add one more set of stuff. We can also stack this bitmaps.
p3 - selection is a simple frame, but pretty visible, and hover could be maybe even weaker, at least my taste says so.
I wanted, in general, to make this graphics not too absorbing. So that player focuses on icons rather than on those features.

Q1 - Selecting multible items is a must, I think
Q2 - snowman is a joke there, really. I'm for having stats on top.

To summarize state of things:
UI elements are ready, stored in our trunk.
Inventory grid cells are stackable. I will add/correct it without problems. Also .psd files are in our media branch.
Fixed size notebook is in trunk
Scalable notebook is there as well, with some description, because it is messy without one.

Also, I have forgotten to produce tabs sticking out of the paper. Since we are currently making only one piece I don't know how urgent it is to have them, or how many should I prepare. I have awful lot of work, it will have to wait until weekend.

After tabs (which are I think a feature to be implemented later, material for it sits in media branch, hidden in notebook.psd, just in case I would die), I'm pretty much out of  ideas what could I make to ease and speed up things.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 13, 2011, 03:07:41 PM
P2 - this was my intention. If its bad idea, I can add one more set of stuff. We can also stack this bitmaps.
p3 - selection is a simple frame, but pretty visible, and hover could be maybe even weaker, at least my taste says so.
I wanted, in general, to make this graphics not too absorbing. So that player focuses on icons rather than on those features.

Q1 - Selecting multible items is a must, I think
[...]
Inventory grid cells are stackable. I will add/correct it without problems. Also .psd files are in our media branch.
Also, I have forgotten to produce tabs sticking out of the paper. Since we are currently making only one piece I don't know how urgent it is to have them, or how many should I prepare. I have awful lot of work, it will have to wait until weekend.

After tabs (which are I think a feature to be implemented later, material for it sits in media branch, hidden in notebook.psd, just in case I would die), I'm pretty much out of  ideas what could I make to ease and speed up things.
Thanks for the answers!

P2. One should be able to tell the difference unless we agree that broken items can't be worn.
P3. "Focus on icons" because it looks nice and immersive? I'd say yes, but the selection must be noticeable enough for easy use. I guess we should talk about this when playtesting and if we notice that we are constantly searching for what the item is we selected last.
Q1. Multi-item-select would be useful if complex item management was part of the game. We want to avoid this, so perhaps we don't need multi-item-select?

@Stackable: I don't understand what "Stackable" means
@Tabs: Yeah, I think they're not too important right now but it would be good to know where they are, so space can be planned for them when doing a first gui implmenentation.
@WhatNow?: I'd say we should try implementing the new inventory. What programmers would like to help with pychan/xml files?


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 13, 2011, 03:48:01 PM
@ multi select - Icon background will work no matter it is one thing selected or many.

@ "stackability" - the grid cells I have prepared are simply transparent. So, if you are pixel-perfect in placing them, you can layer as many as you want. Or you can use them as "flat" grid (so no stacking).

@ tabs and place for it. In all borders I left consistent space of few transparent pixels as a place for tabs. It was so also with non-scalable notebook. This may ease things when designing scalable gui, as all the elements (tabs, grid) will fit into the background tightly (or may be totally irrelevant as well).


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 14, 2011, 05:15:54 PM
@ multi select - we should discuss what multi-select could be good for
@ stackability - I think I don't understand what you mean by stacking


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 14, 2011, 07:26:10 PM
stacking - in this case - is placing one bitmap over another, like layers.


Title: RMB
Post by: Q_x on January 15, 2011, 05:47:28 PM
We have a little chat on the Right Mouse Button topic.
I shaved a bit from:
Equip << this can be done with drag and drop
Combine (prepare meals out of raw materials, patch clothes) << same thing as below, really
Use abilities on items (repair)
Drop on ground
Show information
Change item grid sorting/filtering << done elsewhere

I also thought there is no real way to have the ability of repairing thing and crafting with it, so I'd say we can show only one button of those two.

I also can't quite say we'll be using abilities other than crafting on items, so I left it this way.
Note that if we would give our player the ability of using skills on items, the middle field may be used for that purpose.

EDIT: after short brainstorming in the top left corner could be "Use".


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 15, 2011, 06:03:01 PM
I was thinking of a standard graphical toolkit style context menu with following options
ActionConditionsEffect
"Use"Is interactive, stays after usage (eg. Guitar)Item gets used (might result in dialog?)
"Consume"Is consumable, disappears after usageItem gets consumed (might result in dialog?)
"Equip"Is equippable and has clear unique equipment slot (jacket)Item gets put from inventory to equipment slot
"Unequip"Is equippted and can be uneqiped (a straightjacket might not be)Item gets put from equipment slot to inventory
"Repair" (skill)Skill can be applied to ItemRepair skill gets applied on item
... other skills (like repair)Skill can be applied to ItemSkill gets applied on item (might result in dialog)
"Drop"Is droppable (critical quest items might not be?)Item gets dropped or if > 1 item, menu pops up asking for amount of items to be dropped

I like the design of your mockup, Q_x!
1. The "info" should be default when hovering or right-clicking IMHO
2. There might be problems when different amounts of interactions are possible with one item.
3. This is better than a circle-menu a la Cortex Command ( http://tiny.cc/5gjxo ) I think and looks much prettier than a standard context menu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context_menu )

PS: used http://www.ecardmax.com/hoteditor/ for gnumeric -> bbcode

PPS: food for thought on context menus:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5044/5357297821_3cb85f296c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297821/)
Drakensang Inventory Context Menu (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297821/) by Iwan Gabovitch (http://www.flickr.com/people/qubodup/), on Flickr
full size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297821/sizes/o

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5010/5357297811_e14d302243.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297811/)
Cortex Command Context Menu (not really an RPG :) ) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297811/) by Iwan Gabovitch (http://www.flickr.com/people/qubodup/), on Flickr
full size: http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297811/sizes/o


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on January 17, 2011, 04:20:17 AM
I like the "Triad".

Repair is just a sub-type of Craft (craft a broken thing into a fixed thing).  Use and Consume are very similar as well

Hmmmm.... tricky stuff


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 17, 2011, 09:43:37 AM
So maybe we need totally different menu?
RMB for Use menu and drag and drop to yet-unplanned slot to place thing onto the ground? Plus click-click to trigger a "default action" for any item (eating edible stuff, repairing broken, wearing wereables)?


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: dracre on January 17, 2011, 01:47:37 PM
How about an expanding tree. I designed this thing myself. You can open  a new branch by clicking the right button. Of course the buttons should be replaced with the appropriate icons.

First you have the item
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1089/tree1u.jpg)

Then you click to open up the menu
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2864/tree2x.jpg)

Then you open the Use menu
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4575/tree3.jpg)


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 17, 2011, 02:20:08 PM
Problem is when you craft things - basically like 20-30 branches can pop up at a time - like when you want to improve your shoes and you can sew them with waxed thread, tared thread, tar the thread they have or wax it, mount snowshoes under it, maybe even mountain racks, mount gators to them, patch a hole, attach new layer of skin under it... Mechanics is pretty dense around it.
Also, reading it may be hard. You will get pretty chaotic visuals when sliding whole tree and eyes will be insta-tired when trying to find the right item quickly.
Maybe it would be an option not to "unwind" parts of tree only, but also to "wind up" all the past items into a one labeled "back"?

My overall point is still to emphasize the story, not bling bling features. But emphasize, not dominate.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: dracre on January 17, 2011, 02:56:34 PM
Problem is when you craft things - basically like 20-30 branches can pop up at a time - like when you want to improve your shoes and you can sew them with waxed thread, tared thread, tar the thread they have or wax it, mount snowshoes under it, maybe even mountain racks, mount gators to them, patch a hole, attach new layer of skin under it...

Are you serious? If you really need to open 20-30 branches just to upgrade your shoes, your crafting system is undeniably overcomplicated.

How about making it so that the item you upgrade can be opened like a container, so that it has upgrade slots you can fill with whatever stuff you wanna attach to it.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 17, 2011, 03:14:25 PM
Well, crafting is a thing in progress (I also have to share my thoughts with zenbitz on that), so the solution has to be more or less elastic. But yes, I'd expect to have at least like 10 things to choose from when I choose a tool like an axe.

Also thing to think of: how would branch differ from leaf visually?

I'm still thinking about menu with RMB = Use (traditional context menu will be good in this case, there are no "standard elements" and the text is most important), click-click = default action and drag and drop to wear, place in slots and drop via "drop onto ground" slot.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 17, 2011, 06:13:21 PM
@drtrace: very nice :) but I would prefer a simpler (non-branching) menu. Hopefully that's possible.
What app did you use for making that graph?

I'm still thinking about menu with RMB = Use (traditional context menu will be good in this case, there are no "standard elements" and the text is most important), click-click = default action and drag and drop to wear, place in slots and drop via "drop onto ground" slot.
Doubleclick for default action sounds good.

We need to figure out how complicated the skill system will be from the perspective of the player... Must... start.. thread..


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: dracre on January 17, 2011, 06:39:32 PM
What app did you use for making that graph?

I drew it in Paintshop. The idea was that you can see everything instead of having to go through lots of menus.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on January 17, 2011, 11:38:23 PM
Let's not get too crazy with the different thread types.  Crafting will have to be a different interface.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: mvBarracuda on January 18, 2011, 12:10:33 AM
Yep, I totally agree on this. We can't foresee all possible GUI options at this point so we have to start somewhere, agree on something that might work and implement it. If it turns out that this interface will need some tweaks down the line to work with new features that get implement, that's not a major problem.

To get things started, we should just worry about the core inventory for now and try to come up with something we can implement for GUI prototyping purposes.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Technomage on January 18, 2011, 04:38:12 AM
Not sure if this has been addressed already, but do we plan to make the inventory and other in-game screens pause the game while open? I'd like to hear zenbitz' comments on this, since this would likely influence how combat works in addition to the player's immersion.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 18, 2011, 10:31:04 AM
Its not anything more but my opinion, but opening any window should pause the game.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on January 19, 2011, 05:14:58 AM
oopening any window should pause the game.
I also favor this for now.

I would also favor that the right-click context menu (see below) opened in the world view should also pause the game, so 'selected' npc's can't walk away while you decide whether to look at or talk to an npc.

PS: About inventory context menu: I suggest we talk about this later (I think zenbitz said that to me) and try mocking up a crafting screen for now.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on January 19, 2011, 10:48:11 PM
Well, that doesn't sound like what I said... I think I meant that the CRAFTING issues can go to the CRAFTING interface.  Something along the lines of the simple menus or simple branches for INVENTORY window I think should be fine.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on January 20, 2011, 12:01:01 PM
Zenbitz, take a look at that if so.

We chatted todat with qubodup and agreed upon what follows:

RMB menu should look more or less like standard windoze context menu - vertical list of choices, without sub-trees (though we can make an exception here).

First goes what is supposed to be a default set of actions, later long list of all possibilities of non-crafting usage, and finally drop. Some things may be edible tools, or even edible, reperable, craftable, writeble/readable all at once (things made of birch bark or rawhide would be in real life).

Eat
Repair
Read
Default "use" choice (bolded if possible, marked with * or << if not)
Craft with that item (opens crafting window with the item selected, but still unselectable)
---separator---
All the other use cases
---separator---
Drop item

If the choices are unavailable, it should not be showed at all.




Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: qubodup on February 06, 2011, 07:17:30 PM
rowanas just asked me on IRC if we could include a paper doll view.

Quote
< rowanas> I was hoping that you might have time and inclination to include a "paper doll" style inventory. have the equipped items placed close to or on the body part they use. It looks nicer, in my opinion, and it's more intuitive
< qubodup> rowanas: like http://www.flickr.com/photos/qubodup/5357297821/sizes/o ?
< rowanas> vaguely, yeah. Slightly less chaotic, perhaps. Although that might be due to sheer number of item slots
< qubodup> rowanas: http://forums.parpg.net/index.php?topic=413.msg8517#msg8517 q_x made a paperdoll example. Would you consider this as a good solution?
< rowanas> that's pretty good, yeah

I would like the equipted item's stats to be visible instantly. Perhaps it should be made possible to switch 'paper doll' and 'information' views.

Since the information view is the more complex to implement, I would prefer it to be the first target.


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: wmbuRn on April 29, 2011, 11:23:32 AM
I had some fun with paint again, how inventory should look like, this is basic info and idea can grow larger :)
I think items [e.g. Pant] should be putted directly on characters picture, instead of character picture is up and drop box for equiped items bellow

http://img41.imageshack.us/i/notebookwithinventoryco.jpg/


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: Q_x on April 29, 2011, 02:08:32 PM
As for types and quantity of slots - this is again a kind of collaborative decision, mostly mechanics-related. Belt items would be needed for sure, maybe instead of rings, and maybe as it is now - on HUD on bottom.

I'd gladly see one or two slots for items stored on neck btw. - neck knife may be one obvious option, shawl or bandanna - another one, but in general it is easy to combine those.

As a general remark - inventory GUI is close to be finished - I did some graphics, there was a prototype made, so not much is going to be changed. But I think we will consider any reasonable proposal. This is why, when you're doing mockups, not just proof of concept sketches - please, show as much of actual look, as possible. Install the font to estimate how much text you can squeeze (if you have the game running, you have it allready, just search for .ttf files. Other way is to download it straight from our media branch.) Also, please try to keep the slots at the size that items will have - not much of a change when you're dealing with torso-sized space, but you can get really narrow when it comes to putting 4 slots in a row. 50x50 or 60x60 pix it is, I think the smaller size won.
 



Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: wmbuRn on April 29, 2011, 02:23:04 PM
Yes you are right. But this is only warming up :) Am in a hurry so i made another funny picture. So its another sketch all do mockups later :)

http://img25.imageshack.us/i/inventoryp.jpg/


Title: Re: WIP - HUD and the GUIs, feedback needed !
Post by: zenbitz on May 03, 2011, 11:06:39 PM
Glad to see people working on stuff!