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Development => Mechanics => Topic started by: d3rail3d on August 12, 2009, 04:15:16 PM



Title: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: d3rail3d on August 12, 2009, 04:15:16 PM
I was reading over the game mechanics in the wiki and saw this definition in the combat section. If I may, I think this will run you into some problems concerning growth (one of the most important elements in any RPG, imho). Basically it's like giving the first contestant a 10 out of 10. The next contestant can't score higher, even if they are better. There is also mention of AP(Action Points). I think your answer lies here. At least for ease of game mechanics (I'm no programmer, so can't comment on the code aspect)

By requiring the player to use AP (or Time Units, or whatever) to preform all actions, you can easily regulate what they can do per turn. If the base rate of regaining this resource is 1 AP per 3-5 seconds. (Of course play testing will really help to find the right regeneration rate). You link the players AP regen rate growth to their stamina. For instance, for every 10 stamina (or endurance, or what ever) the player may knock a second off of the standard AP regen rate. 10 is a number pulled out of the air, because you guys may go with the Fallout method of players base stats maxing at 10, in this case every 3 - 5 could knock off a second for the regen tick. Alternatively, if you set 1 turn at 3-5 seconds, you could base how many AP the player regens pers turn. 2, 3, 4, whatever.

Another means of regulating player actions is to have stat based reductions for how many AP points it takes to perform actions. This could be a bit more flexible because there are a lot of stats and conditions that could add or decrease the amount of AP such as speed, agility, dexterity, character skill level in the desired action, encumbrance, gear bonuses, etc. But generally you want the bonuses and penalties to be percentages or decimals. For instance, moving a certain distance may have a base requirement of 10 AP. Every 3 points of speed might reduce the base AP cost of a movement action by .25 (or so) A player with 3-5 Speed would use about 8 AP, where as a character with 10 Speed would only spend about 3 AP. These numbers wouldn't have to be constant either. Speed may apply to something that has little to do with movement, but it only provides a .10 bonus (or so). Of course, you could simplify your life by wrapping Speed, Agility and Dexterity in one package called Physical Prowess.

Combining the rate of AP regeneration with the reducing the AP cost of actions, you have a flexible system to create a wide perception of growth. Basically, you create a system where the player could have the slow chubby guy that gets winded easily after a relatively short distance or the track star (or soldier) that can run a mile in a few minutes (my fastest 2 mile run in the Army was 11 mins, and that was probably slow compared to someone who trains daily for distance running), and you really should give players the option to be either. I think this way you can create believable and noticeable differences without fear of creating a Superman and wrecking your game balance.

I guess 1 turn = 1 sec could work, but I generally think it hurts the players satisfaction of character growth if he has to grow 10 levels just to see a tick of improvement. MMO's do that to keep players paying them that monthly fee (or to maintain traffic for advertising dollars), but it is really a cheap way to extend the game play clock. People play fun games for years without the hefty, artificial growth penalties...


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 12, 2009, 05:34:38 PM
I am not sure I am following your objection... are you saying that if EVERYONE gets 1 action/turn there won't be enough of a "distinction" between a good combat character and a bad one?  Or an inexperienced one and an experienced one?

The difficulty is simply that it doesn't make sense to allow a player/character to sequence >~2 actions (move/attack say) before others get to act/react. 

Lets take the AP example.  An average person has 5 AP.  An average combat action of some sort takes 4 APs.  So an average person can do 1 thing/turn, and have 1 "left over" AP.   I guess they could save it up and get to act twice every 5th turn or something, or like Fallout have it be a dodge/defense bonus.

Now the average person improves and gains an extra AP.   He can still only do 1 thing, just has more "left over" APs.    Now eventually, he gets to 8 AP, but now he can act _twice_ per turn... this makes him literally twice as good as an average guy.  It's very unbalancing... and I am not really into making a game where you become a devastating slayer of men. (there are lots of games like that)

I suppose saving the left over APs works...   if 8 APs = 2 actions/turn (none left over)
7 APs would be like:
Turn1 2 3 4 5
APs710 9 8 7
actions1 2 2 2 1
left over AP3 2 1 0 3

That might work OK... although APs are still way too valuable.   Plus now we have to balance the AP cost of every action...  not sure it's worth it.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: d3rail3d on August 12, 2009, 09:29:09 PM
I guess I meant more along the lines of  the standard turn = to 1 sec. Any type of growth beyond that has people doing multiple actions in one second which is seems very unlikely. I mean, raising a gun and shooting probably takes more than a second, so now your dealing with some one taking a turn to raise his gun, then another to shoot...Sounds a bit bulky, but you've been working on this longer than I, so I'm just throwing my opinion out there. One question for this is how you would handle fatigue, or if that would even be a factor. If you burn all your AP every turn, how many turns till it starts to affect the character?

I was more suggesting a turn (or tick) equal more than 1 sec, and players will regain AP at a certain rate per tick. Seemed like it would open up more flexibility later on when you start finalizing exactly what players can do for what AP. But, yes, it would tack on some time in play test to balance. Though I would figure you guys are going to have to do that anyway just to balance all the actions out.



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 12, 2009, 10:31:19 PM
Well, if your gun is out, and it's an automatic loader, how many times can you squeeze the trigger?  Probably at least 3.   So there are some actions that are faster than 1 sec.

I think the time scale is fine.  I mean does it really matter if it's 0.8s or 1.3s?    I just think action points in general don't add anything except the possibliity to make very fine distinctions in how long things take (for example, swinging a big slow weapon vs. quick fast one).

The whole point is that there WON'T be character growth allowing 2 actions/second.    People don't generally get "faster" anyway, except in some tasks like bow shooting where a trained person is much faster than an untrained one.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: d3rail3d on August 12, 2009, 11:05:31 PM
I gotcha. Like I said, you guys have been thinking about this way longer than before I poked my head in.

One question though, how will a level 15 character look compared to a level 1 character? Or is it really just accuracy that improves and equipment?

The heart of my original post was just a concern for noticeable character growth. I don't agree with people not getting "faster" though. A trained boxer is going to wear out someone that just wandered out the street into the ring. He will throw more punches a second and more accurately than the average guy. Aside from speed, he'll also be able to last longer in the ring before he starts to get winded and generally suck. The boxer isn't a god, just trained and better. Look at Tyson back in the day. He could get 3 punches in a second and put power behind them enough to knock someone out.

In an RPG, I'd like to feel my Joe Schmo will grow to be something remarkable in someway; else why are we following his journeys? I understand wanting to not over complicate things, but we shouldn't make every player mediocre for the sake of simplicity either.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on August 13, 2009, 08:22:41 AM
Good points d3rail3d, my current design doc for a realistic combat system goes in the same direction, here`s a snippet:

APs are dependent on:
a)Character skills:
More APs means you can make more shots per turn(you shoot faster).
The firing frequenzy is heavily dependend on the gun itself, you can`t fire a gun faster then
it is technically possible. Another reason is that a skilled shooter is someone who shoots fast
and precisely. Skill boils down to this definition: gun skill = accuracy + time it took to fire
off that shot. Both have the same gun, same ideal conditions: A character (A) might be very
accurate but if hes slow, he can`t compete with against a character (B) who is slightly less
accurate but fires far more shots per round and kills him, thusly B is more skilled in combat.
So from a realistic standpoint APs are dependent on the individual gun skill based on the
experience with the weapon type(here weapon category), so better weapon type skill = more APs for
that weapon type but because of technical limitations mentioned earlier each weaponcategory(to
simplify) has MAX AP, meaning there is a certain point where more skill won`t  make you shoot faster.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: d3rail3d on August 13, 2009, 12:34:48 PM
That's about right. I suppose even if it is just gear, you can have character growth. I think back last year when I was playing through Dead Space. Every bit of growth came from upgrading your weapons and armor. You character himself never gets any physically  better than when you start the game. Having the max AP for a particular weapon, or action, gives the dev a way to cap the players growth, while at the same time giving the player that sense of improvement for his work through the course of the game.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 13, 2009, 08:37:55 PM
I gotcha. Like I said, you guys have been thinking about this way longer than before I poked my head in.

One question though, how will a level 15 character look compared to a level 1 character? Or is it really just accuracy that improves and equipment?

No levels.

Quote
The heart of my original post was just a concern for noticeable character growth. I don't agree with people not getting "faster" though. A trained boxer is going to wear out someone that just wandered out the street into the ring. He will throw more punches a second and more accurately than the average guy.

But a trained boxer basically spends HIS ENTIRE LIFE training to box.   Let's say a game of PARPG lasts 2 "character" years (this is arbitrary... could be 2 months, or 10 years), but it seems reasonable.  How much of those 2 years is that character spending training, for example, his combat skills?  How much better than an average schmoe would he be?  And remember, if that's how you want to spend your 2 years surviving (by hunting and slaying), you are probably not going to start as an average schmoe, you are going to start as kind of a bad ass to begin with.

Quote
In an RPG, I'd like to feel my Joe Schmo will grow to be something remarkable in someway; else why are we following his journeys? I understand wanting to not over complicate things, but we shouldn't make every player mediocre for the sake of simplicity either.

I actually find this aspect of cRPGs to be uncompelling and cliche.    In a "realistic" world, there are no Lvl 14 black dragons or death claws.  Just hard men.   And I don't care what kind of training you have, you are not going to go all Schwartzenegger on a room full of bad dudes armed to the teeth.   There are plenty of games where you can transform from misfit to action hero in the course of 30 hours of play time.  I would like to make something a little different.

I would rather have characters be Mad Max than The Terminator.  Max is tough, but he's not superhuman.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: d3rail3d on August 13, 2009, 09:12:44 PM
No I see your point, Zenbitz. I definitely missed the part about there being no levels in this game. That makes all the difference I think. Like I said to Suzi, even equipment growth satisfies the character growth aspect of the rpg.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on August 14, 2009, 07:17:04 AM
So there was already a deciscion made that there won`t be levels? Somehow i doubt that.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: mvBarracuda on August 14, 2009, 07:32:50 AM
Zenbitz prolly has not lined that out at the wiki yet but we've been talking about leveling up vs. not leveling up since the very beginning of the project, about half a year ago. And it was already Zenbitz' position back then to not go down the classical leveling up route. I'm personally fine with the decision; he's the only active game mechanics designer at this point so we have to simply give him room to make actual decisions in the field. We'll end up tweaking the gameplay once everything is put into the game anyway.

Right now we simply flesh out things on paper and we'll have to see how it works out in the game later and apply changes where necessary.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on August 14, 2009, 07:48:34 AM
Ok i understand if somebody says "hey let`s make no levels" but there needs to be a concept, design documents etc. You can`t just make a decision without having written down ideas how to handle that. Levels are a foolproof concept because almost all RPGs have them, so untill there is no actual concept(maybe there is) calling it decision is wrong.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: mvBarracuda on August 14, 2009, 07:55:25 AM
I'm sure Zenbitz will flesh out this mechanic sooner or later. There might be already something at the mechanics section of the wiki, but I don't have the time to look things up right now. But Zenbitz will surely spot this thread and reply to it over the course of the weekend.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 14, 2009, 07:45:37 PM
while this doesn't explicitly state "no levels" it implies it.   Actually, I just edited to say "no levels".

Earlier documents and forum posts of mine have made it clear that I have a STRONG disdain for levels.

There are dozens of PnP RPGs that do not have a concept of "level".  Would you like a complete list or just the major ones.

You are welcome to submit your own proposals on game mechanics.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on August 14, 2009, 08:22:52 PM
Fine then tell me why you are strongly against levels.

No list needed, just tell me how it works. What about experience points? How to handle character progression? Can characters improve their skill or do they stay the same?


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 14, 2009, 09:55:41 PM
I think levels are stupid because they are an unnecessary abstraction.  Real people don't have "levels".  The only think they are good for is a quick and dirty way to match up opponents....   Oh, you are a level 2 party?  Fight these level 2 monsters and get level 2 treasure/rewards...   You don't need that with a computer, the CPU can just calculate how tough opponents need to be (this is a general comment, not a PARPG comment).     You, of course, don't need them in a PnP RPG either.

The only reason levels exist in many (not even most) games is that D&D had them back in 1978.

Does the wiki page above not explain how character advancement works without experience points or levels?


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: shevegen on August 14, 2009, 10:14:38 PM
It is interesting that I do agree with zenbitz ;)


My favourite roleplaying game (Betrayal at Krondor) hat no XP.

Skill progression was through practise & time, stat progression was only via time (this one was a bit stupid, because after some weeks the char suddenly hat a bit more health and strength....)

Quote
There are dozens of PnP RPGs that do not have a concept of "level".  Would you like a complete list or just the major ones

Any Computer RPGS? I only know of Betrayal at Krondor. Cant recall any CRPG that had no XP


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 14, 2009, 10:48:12 PM
it is my theory that no one has bothered to make a good system for cRPGs.    A typical cRPG just rips off some existing system because they've heard of it.

 All the effort goes in to graphics first then writing.   Oh, and marketing.



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on August 15, 2009, 10:39:23 AM
it is my theory that no one has bothered to make a good system for cRPGs.    A typical cRPG just rips off some existing system because they've heard of it.
That`s not really true.

Quote
I think levels are stupid because they are an unnecessary abstraction.  Real people don't have "levels".  The only think they are good for is a quick and dirty way to match up opponents....   Oh, you are a level 2 party?  Fight these level 2 monsters and get level 2 treasure/rewards...   You don't need that with a computer, the CPU can just calculate how tough opponents need to be (this is a general comment, not a PARPG comment).     You, of course, don't need them in a PnP RPG either.

The only reason levels exist in many (not even most) games is that D&D had them back in 1978.
Levels are an very good indicator of what the character is able to do. In PvP situations you just have to know which level your opponent is to know if you have a change against him or not. In real-life it kinda works like this sometimes, if i`d see Mike Tyson in front of me, i`d know instantly he is on a higher level regarding unarmed combat than me thusly beating the shit out of me. This doesn`t work always, you can`t tell which one of two people is the better shooter when the conditions are the same untill one of them gets killed pretty fast. You could say the character who survived this battle has a higher level than the other. Levels are a valid indication, just like stats, without numbers telling that a >b the computer won`t be able to pick a winner. Question: So when somebody raises up his/her stats(no matter how) is that not leveling up? No leveling for me means you pick a character and his stats/skills stay the same forever, everything else is leveling up or down.



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Gaspard on August 16, 2009, 04:54:09 PM
But Suzi, if you match a 2nd level boxer with a 2nd level sharpshooter, both geared up, who do you think would win ?

If you can't decide then let us place them 50 feet apart. Who would win now ?

Even if the boxer is confident that he'd take the shooter out with one well-placed blow then I'd still like to see him dodge the bullets for 50 feet all the while risking twisting an ankle, not to mention what bullets do to muscles and tendons and bones and, well, brains when they hit home


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 18, 2009, 08:55:13 PM
it is my theory that no one has bothered to make a good system for cRPGs.    A typical cRPG just rips off some existing system because they've heard of it.
That`s not really true.

Well, it's a theory that could be easily disproven with counter examples.

Quote
Levels are an very good indicator of what the character is able to do. In PvP situations you just have to know which level your opponent is to know if you have a change against him or not. In real-life it kinda works like this sometimes, if i`d see Mike Tyson in front of me, i`d know instantly he is on a higher level regarding unarmed combat than me thusly beating the shit out of me.


I prefer to not know.    But in the case of Mike Tyson - by looking at him you'd have no idea what "level" of boxer he was.  You'd know he was big and probably very strong.   You only know he's a good boxer by reputation.   So, a good reputation system would substitutute for this "feature" of levels.    But you have hit on what they are for  - but kind of backwards.  We can give the player any other type of clue as to how bad ass his opponent is - via reputation or other graphic clue without resorting to an artificial "level"... but that's the easy task; players are smart.

How do you tell the NPC that they shouldn't mess with the PC?  Reputation - would help, maybe enough... but we also want a NPC (could be in the player's party or enemy or neutral) to be able to decide IN THE MIDDLE of a fight that it's time to pack up and leave.  You could use a "level" for this, but then level 1s would always run from level 3s... which is going to get cheesy.  What you really want is for the NPC to do a little battle simulation and "calculate his odds" of surviving the current fight, vs. possible rewards and other factors (maybe he's trapped).  I think we can do better than comparing levels.

And besides I hate them.
EDIT:  Missed a quote tag


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: GarmGarf on August 18, 2009, 11:17:14 PM
I've always had an affinity towards the concept of a level-less and classless RPG, and character development freedom in general.


About the player not (definitely) knowing whether the opposition is too tough or not before battle commences, I think the idea is great, however, the first thing that comes to mind is the concept of players saving their game right before fights and loading if the enemies are too tough. Maybe if escaping battles was easy enough or didn't cost too much resources/penalties, then it could be pulled off well.

Basically, we gotta make sure that "saving and loading" isn't a requirement to play this game effectively, and preferably make it not a common practice (or impossible) when playing this game. I think there was a thread on that separate issue though.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: monkeyface on August 18, 2009, 11:47:15 PM
I've always had an affinity towards the concept of a level-less and classless RPG, and character development freedom in general.


About the player not (definitely) knowing whether the opposition is too tough or not before battle commences, I think the idea is great, however, the first thing that comes to mind is the concept of players saving their game right before fights and loading if the enemies are too tough. Maybe if escaping battles was easy enough or didn't cost too much resources/penalties, then it could be pulled off well.

Basically, we gotta make sure that "saving and loading" isn't a requirement to play this game effectively, and preferably make it not a common practice (or impossible) when playing this game. I think there was a thread on that separate issue though.

Listen to this man, this is good game design. Instead of removing the option to quick-save/load or modifying it, you should simply design the game so that the practice becomes obsolete, because it is in itself an unsustainable concept.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Border on August 19, 2009, 03:50:00 AM
just one thing not to forgot when creating a Game.
NEVER PUNISH THE PLAYER. If players want to play with the save always on, let it play is/her way.
I notice there were similar discussion in the map thread as to avoid the in/out of building to reset fight. Good idea you think?
BAD Designer BaD!! If you want your enemy to remember that he was attacking you even if you ran into a house, Fine but never do that to punish the player if he/she want to play cowardly.
Don't get me wrong, i think it suck if player do that  but punishing him for that is like calling the police when i tell the sleeping beauty differently to my kids because i'm too tired to read the whole things.
A game is suppose to be fun whatever the ways you play it.
Lets just build an awesome game that players won't have choices but to go thought it the good way.
Oh and i'm all for levelless Game.It might feel weird at start but zenbitz is righ cRPG shouldn't rely on level. Goodbye farming...
Wasn't dungeon siege a level less game too? or it was only the aptitude that come up with the use?


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: monkeyface on August 19, 2009, 07:40:42 PM
That guy there is also smart, listen to him as well.
About level though. The most optimal choice would be to not have them. But they are useful for conveying progress and spurring the player. There'd have to be a good substitute and not just "dropping" the concept.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: mvBarracuda on August 19, 2009, 10:23:05 PM
Ways of character progression are definately needed. I don't mind a levelless concept but we have to find alternative ways of character progression that make the game worthwhile to play if we don't use levels.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on August 19, 2009, 11:17:48 PM
I have half a mind to make a cRPG (maybe not this one) where you actually get WORSE in capabilities as the game goes on.  You get older, more damaged, stressed out...  Instead of "garnering experience to improve" as the game goes on, you have to husband your resources to have some left for the end...

Load/save has been beaten to death but... your point is well taken.  I do think that, in general, fights should not be entered in to lightly in this game.  Combat should be dangerous.   Thief, I think was like this. (not an RPG).

I frankly don't care how people play the game, but I want to make it the way I think it should be.  And that means there are consequences to actions, like if you are in a fight you shouldn't be able to end it by entering a building and having enemies reset their AI.     However, I *DO* think the game should account for the fact that you might start a fight that you can't finish (satisfactorily) and it should give the player an "out" - it should just be a reasonably believable out (like fleeing, or surrendering, or bluffing, or trading something for your pathetic life)






Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on September 11, 2009, 06:46:51 PM
Hello all, sorry for the late answer.

Typical Level system:
The character gains levels, for each level you get skillpoints which you can invest wherever you want.

Your proposal:
http://wiki.parpg.net/Proposals:Use-and-Study-based_Learning
Learn-by-doing; Learn-by-study;

Both systems have certain "levels", let`s use for example "outdoorsman" - skill.
55 points outdoorsman is obviously less than 80 outdoorsman.
So a player B with higher outdoorsman has a "higher level" then player A.
In the end all boils down to numbers and when you increase the number of that skill,
no matter how, i`d call it "leveling up" because that`s what it is.

I`m not defending the typical leveling system, because it`s flawed.
Giving players the option to put skillpoints where they want makes no sense.

I prefer the leveless system too , only if following points are not being ignored:
a) Mastering skills must get harder after each improvement
aka "Easy to learn, hard to master"
b) Skills only stay very high when they are in use or being trained,
if not they get back to a certain point
c) Skills are dependent on the character stats.
> Stats(like Strength etc.) not only define with how much skills you start with
but also how fast you are able to improve them(Intelligence etc.) and how much
you are able to raise that skill (skill MAXIMUM depending on stats)

Then again, this goes even deeper. Why should stats be constant?
When you start with strength 7, it`s not realistically when it stays constant
if you don`t do physical training at all or when you do physicial training
it actually gets higher. The question is: How close to reality do we want
our RPG?

Zenbitz most of your wiki entrys read like lists to me not like a solution to a certain
problem or offer a way how you would like to see them implemented. Maybe this was
or is your intention to make a "rough sketch" first, i`d like to see a more detailled
approach with a stricter direction.



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on September 12, 2009, 08:05:06 PM
Hello all, sorry for the late answer.
No problem it's a good answer, and we are in no hurry.
Quote
Both systems have certain "levels", let`s use for example "outdoorsman" - skill.
55 points outdoorsman is obviously less than 80 outdoorsman.
So a player B with higher outdoorsman has a "higher level" then player A.
In the end all boils down to numbers and when you increase the number of that skill,
no matter how, i`d call it "leveling up" because that`s what it is.

OK, that is not a standard definition of "leveling".  "Leveling" implies to (most of the gaming world) a threshold where MANY skills/stats/whatevers increase simultaneously.  So, let's just agree not to use the word the way you use it above.   Just call it "skill increase" or something.


Quote
a) Mastering skills must get harder after each improvement
aka "Easy to learn, hard to master"

Yes.
Quote
b) Skills only stay very high when they are in use or being trained,
if not they get back to a certain point

Not worth the trouble, and very annoying to players.  Literally forces them to (try) to grind to keep their skills honed.  Maybe something like a (temporary) minus to using a skill that is "rusty"...

Quote
c) Skills are dependent on the character stats.
> Stats(like Strength etc.) not only define with how much skills you start with
but also how fast you are able to improve them(Intelligence etc.) and how much
you are able to raise that skill (skill MAXIMUM depending on stats)

Maybe.  I don't really see the point of this.   Systems like this usually end up making "Intelligence" by far the most important skill.  There are plenty of superstar athletes and martial artists who are dumb.

Quote
Zenbitz most of your wiki entrys read like lists to me not like a solution to a certain
problem or offer a way how you would like to see them implemented. Maybe this was
or is your intention to make a "rough sketch" first, i`d like to see a more detailled
approach with a stricter direction.

Feel free to edit them!  Just sign your changes with your username.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Suzi on September 12, 2009, 09:23:18 PM
To point b)
Yes that is my idea as well.
Basically there is "knowledge", a theoretical part of a skill
and a practical part of a skill meaning your character has to
use and train that skill to keep that skill momentum.
If a certain skill looses that momentum, it temporarily decreases
untill a certain point which is in that case "knowledge", converting
it ingame it means a skillpoint limit, where no further decrease
is possible.

To point c)
Maybe i should use better examples to put more sense into it.
Or at least let me try, probably not the best examples.
Fallout: A sniper requires high perception and a high "small guns" skill
Now the question is how can somebody with low perception even become
such a good master of the "small guns" skill?
Or
Fallout: The "Barter" and sometimes "Speech" skill requires charisma,
now how can you become a good barter with low charisma, how can you
convince people with speeches if you lack charisma? My idea is
stats not only define skill starter points but also a skill MAXimum
depending on stats.


I won`t edit your work except it is by adding missing stuff in text-form.
My critism is just when i take the role of the programmer and see such entrys
i´d maybe know what is desired but whats lacking is a strict direction with
strict solutions, basically a "how to make it and convert it into a game".
Currently i lack the time to write everything as desired, that`s why i
hope you appreciate  that advice from me and keep that in mind.



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on September 13, 2009, 06:16:31 PM
Quote
Then again, this goes even deeper. Why should stats be constant?
When you start with strength 7, it`s not realistically when it stays constant
if you don`t do physical training at all or when you do physicial training
it actually gets higher. The question is: How close to reality do we want
our RPG?

This point I didn't get to, but goes along with skills degrading.  I agree that this seems more realistic, but for (whatever reason) it seems to cross the line of playability.    Either you are going to "surprise" a player when he realizes his skills/stats are degrading, or they are just going to go out of their way to spend some 10% or whatever of their time on maintenance.  Maintenance is boring, as we should just assume that it goes on in the back ground.  Like going to the bathroom.  The exception is stuff where there is an interesting "trade" for the player to make.  For example, characters should sleep for 6-8 hours/day BUT there may be cases where they are on the run or doing some other desperate or dodgy maneuver and need to skip sleep for a couple of days. 

The game is going to be hard enough without players having to worry about their skills/stats degrading.   We can just assume that some amount of time of the day is spent doing this stuff behind the scenes.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on September 13, 2009, 06:29:09 PM
To point c)
Maybe i should use better examples to put more sense into it.
Or at least let me try, probably not the best examples.
Fallout: A sniper requires high perception and a high "small guns" skill
Now the question is how can somebody with low perception even become
such a good master of the "small guns" skill?
Or
Fallout: The "Barter" and sometimes "Speech" skill requires charisma,
now how can you become a good barter with low charisma, how can you
convince people with speeches if you lack charisma? My idea is
stats not only define skill starter points but also a skill MAXimum
depending on stats.

Well, the way GURPS (and some other systems, I think) work is that when you "buy" (or gain) a skill, it has a base value depending on your stats.   The "cost" (or difficulty) to improve it INCREASES relative to that baseline.  So, in your second example:

Barter base = Charisma/4 + Reason/4 + Perception/8 + Willpower/8.  (just as an example, this might be too high or low).  So if you had 50s (average) in all 4 stats you would have a starting skill of 37.5.  Maybe if you "buy" the skill it will go to 150% of this (56.25)

Now as you use your skill (fail or not), it has a chance of increasing, but the chance of increase is based on how high it is (higher the skill, lower the chance of an increase).  The *amount* of increase (or even the numbers) could be based on the "skill base" (default) which is dependent on your stats.

Quote
I won`t edit your work except it is by adding missing stuff in text-form.
My critism is just when i take the role of the programmer and see such entrys
i´d maybe know what is desired but whats lacking is a strict direction with
strict solutions, basically a "how to make it and convert it into a game".

Well, they are not even "Drafts" (i.e., set in stone) let alone made into strict specifications.  There are too many areas for me to make them all into specs and the programmers aren't ready yet (or if they are, they need to tell me what they need spec'd out)



Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: shevegen on September 13, 2009, 07:01:54 PM
Although it is not related, I would like to add that I am much happier replying or writing on a forum, and I kinda feel less motivated to do so on the wiki. The forum seems to be an easier environment for getting input, output, discussion than the wiki.

The wiki sections already in large part seem to be set-in-stone without much room for discussion - at least that was my impression so far and the easier solution was to avoid topics that appear to be finalized already (since there seems to be not much room for change left). But then again my impression could have been wrong, and if in doubt visible progress will always beat skeptical (but empty) "input". ;)


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: zenbitz on September 14, 2009, 09:32:43 PM
I think that's fine... as long as people take the time to READ the wiki, and cut-and-paste areas they wish to talk about on the forums.
And not here in some unrelated thread.  I think most of the "proposals" i have written have their very own forum topic to comment in.

Perhaps I should link to them in the wiki pages?


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: briantomhson on November 12, 2009, 07:50:00 PM
You made some good points there. I did a search on the topic and found most people will agree with your blog.


Title: Re: 1 turn = 1 sec? I see real character growth issues here...
Post by: Gaspard on November 12, 2009, 08:29:55 PM
You made some good points there. I did a search on the topic and found most people will agree with your blog.

blog ?

oh and zenbitz - linking to forum threads at the wiki should be a must-have. some forum topics get washed away in time, and when the topic becomes more important again it's a hassle digging the good old thread up and usually new ones are started instead, cluttering the forum even more